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The Transcript

Bad Writing Advice: The Post Truth Episode

Voiceover: Rainmaker FM.

Sonia Simone: Copyblogger FM is brought to you by StudioPress, the industry standard for premium WordPress themes and plugins. Built on the Genesis Framework, StudioPress delivers state of the art SEO tools, beautiful and fully responsive design, airtight security, instant updates, and much more. If you’re ready to take your WordPress site to the next level, see for yourself why more than 190 thousand website owners trust StudioPress. Go to Rainmaker.FM/StudioPress. That’s RainMaker.FM/StudioPress.

Hey there, good to see you again. Welcome back to Copyblogger FM, the content marketing podcast. Copyblogger FM is about emerging content marketing trends, interesting disasters, and enduring best practices, along with the occasional rant. My name is Sonia Simone. I’m the chief content officer for Rainmaker Digital and I like to hang out with the folks who do the heavy lifting over on the Copyblogger blog. You can always find additional links, additional resources, and the complete show archive by going to Copyblogger.FM.

Today I thought I would have a slightly depressing episode for a word person, which is the Oxford dictionary’s word of the year for 2016. If you haven’t seen this yet, the word of the year is post-truth. Their definition being: Denoting circumstances in which objective facts are less influential in shaping public opinion than appeals to emotion and personal belief.

This is related to a quote that is often attributed to Mark Twain, probably not correctly, interestingly enough, in keeping with the theme of the show, It’s not what you don’t know that hurts you, it’s what you know that just ain’t so.” That’s really the post-truth world, is lots and lots of people who are absolutely certain about things that do not happen to be grounded in the real world.

Today, instead of being depressed about it, we’re going to treat it as a celebration of the good old fashion fact and we’re going to celebrate those who challenge conventional wisdom and actually check things out for themselves and think critically, because we are all about that.

Jason Miller s Smart Article About Why the Goldfish Attention Span” Myth is Dangerously Wrong

I actually got the idea for this episode by reading a really truly nifty article written by Jason Miller about the goldfish attention span and you may very well, if you ever go to marketing conferences, you’ve probably seen a slide with this statistic on in. This idea that your content and your marketing need to be geared toward the fact, supposedly supported by research, that human beings are now so distracted and pathetic that we have an attention span of eight seconds, which actually makes us worse than goldfish. The phrase research proves often accompanies this slide.

Jason did a really nice job doing a little bit of investigation of where this wacky statistic came from, because honestly, if you think about it for eight seconds, you’ll realize that it’s just not true and it can’t be true. What he found was that Microsoft Canada did some actually very interesting research on human attention spans and how they are changing. That research came from 2015. That research included an infographic that mentioned this, that claimed that human attention spans had dwindled to eight seconds, which put them one second behind goldfish.

I’ll quote from Jason here: “The only problem is that infographic wasn’t actually based on findings from Microsoft’s own research.” Then I’m going to fast forward a little bit: “When you look at it in any level of detail, the stat that has dominated a huge amount of marketing discussion since May 2015 isn’t based on any recognizable research at all.” End quote.

If I didn’t put this factoid into a slide, I could have. I certainly easily could have. It makes a great story. It makes a great slide for a conference. But it’s not consistent and, in fact, I’m not sure why on earth Microsoft would have put the infographic into their report. It’s not consistent with what their research was actually finding, which was not that attention spans were dwindling to something terrifying, but rather that attention was evolving, that it was changing, that how we pay attention was changing. I think we all know that, we all know that from our own experience, from simply looking around.

Devices probably are changing. They’re certainly changing how we pay attention. They could be changing how we’re physically wired, you know. Reading a prevalence of books changed a little bit of how the brain is structured, and so probably our devices are changing our wiring in some ways that might be pretty profound. However, that does not immediately turn us into goldfish.

I’m not going to summarize the whole thing for you, because it was a really good article, very to the point, nicely written. I will send you a link to go read the article in full and get a look at what the research actually did say. You know, what actually should we be doing with our content or with our marketing when we’re thinking about the new attention span and, spoiler alert, mainly it points to your marketing not being pointless or irrelevant. I think we already knew that. But there are some interesting facts and some interesting research findings there that I invite you to go investigate.

In the spirit of Jason’s article, and thinking about this theme of advice or truisms that we’ve all heard, we’ve all thought about, we’ve all seen, that may simply be wrong. Just flat out wrong, or at least not helpful in all circumstances. I went to my good friend Twitter and I asked some people what their favorite piece of bad writing advice might be. Or bad marketing advice would work also. Due to negativity bias, which is our innate tendency to pay more attention to negative things than positive things, I got lots of answer.

I’m going to present some of them for you here, and then in the interest of not making this podcast like an hour and 20 minutes long, I’m going to also compile some of the responses into a blog post. If you boogie on over to Copyblogger.com and check out the blog, you’ll find my post on the same question with some additional answers and also some thoughts from the Copyblogger editorial team.

Why It s a Terrible Idea to Dumb Down Your Content

The first answer I got was from OneTiredEma who has a great Twitter account and actually a wonderful blog, and I will give you a link to that in the show notes. You can just type Copyblogger.FM in your browser and it’ll take you right there. She had kind of a multi-part tweet. Worst advice: Dumb down content. So many fields are complex/technical, but worth exploring (for business or edification). There are middle ways of exploring complex subjects in intelligent but non-jargon language, such as a series of posts. Oversimplifying or skipping or leaving the content rarefied does everyone a disservice.”

Then she had a postscript on that: Also, dumbing it down leads to its own special sort of bad writing, in my experience.” I heartily, heartily concur. I thought that was lovely that that happened to be the first response I got back. This idea that it’s very related to Jason’s point about the goldfish. This idea that audiences are just dumb. They’re just stupid and they can’t pay attention to anything and this is often served with a giant helping of bashing against millennials, and they don’t have attention spans, and, Get off my lawn you annoying kids.” This whole idea that audiences are dopes and you have to just make your content really stupid so that they’ll understand it. I am not seeing this actually work.

Now, there are some kinds of popular content that are stupid. For example, I was reading about the YouTuber PewDiePie, who is the most popular YouTuber in the world. His style has been described as aggressive stupidity. Based on my exposure to his channel, I think that’s a pretty good description. Some things that are stupid are popular. That does not mean you should make your content stupid, because doing that will make you popular. That does not follow.

Now, clarifying things, simplifying things, presenting things in a way that’s clear, and you’ve done the thinking, and it’s well organized, and it’s properly formatted so we don’t have these walls of tiny grey text, those are all things you can do to make your content more accessible to people who are rather distracted, without making it stupid or dumb or boring. Stupid content just tends to be dull. Make it lively, make it interesting, and make it relevant, but don’t dumb it down.

My Suggestion That You Might Find Extremely Dumb For Reframing a Piece of Content

I’ll give you an example of what I mean and you may very well decide, once you’ve heard my example, that I am an idiot. Which is okay, I am cool with that. But I am with my son taking one of these free courses that you can take on Coursera, a college course. It’s an introductory college course on genetics. My son is 11, so it’s a little challenging, but it’s good. It’s an interesting course, and the guy’s talking about recombinant DNA. He’s talking about fruit flies.

First of all, these things are repulsive. I mean, they’re fruit flies. They’re hideous. He’s giving this example and this one has red eyes, and this one has shriveled up wings, and they’re just these gross, dead flies on one side of the screen and you’re trying not to look at them or you’re trying to understand the example. Honestly, if he had used examples from the X-Men, now I know the X-Men are not real, but I would have found that much more memorable. Right? If Mystique and Magneto had a baby, then which genes are recessive and which genes are dominant? Now I realize this is dopey, but it’s the same basic idea that the idea about recombinant DNA is the same idea. The numbers are the same, the math doesn’t get easier, but just presenting it with an interesting metaphor instead of hideous pictures of dead fruit flies makes the information just more appealing.

That’s what I mean when I talk about formatting it or packaging it to be appealing without making it stupid. You can very often find an interesting metaphor that makes your point. I don’t want you to dope your point down, and you probably think that that was doping it down, but I thought it would have worked pretty well. But, if you can associate your ideas with something that is interesting, that does meet the person where they are, then that idea is going to be easier to learn, easier to retain, and easier to recall. That’s kind of what it’s about, especially with content marketing. It’s actually teaching people something that they can remember and that they can use. Hopefully, Ema doesn’t kill me for suggesting that genetics professors talk about the X-Men in their lectures.

Why Long Form Content Still Has a Place

The second response I got was from Kelli Brown and interestingly, it was thematically, I thought, kind of close. Her example of bad advice was: Long blog posts cannot do well, bore readers, don’t get shared, et cetera, and are therefore a bad practice by default.” Again, I thought this was interesting because she had no idea that I had just read the Jason Miller article about the goldfish attention span. Her observation on this was very much to the same point.

Now, long boring blog posts or videos or podcasts are a bad idea. Boring content, irrelevant content, is not a great idea. If it’s long, then there’s just more not-a-good-idea to go around. But there’s nothing wrong with long form content, it has a place. Some content creators are known for it and always have been. There have always been some content creators who went for long and complex and in depth over the short and the punchy and the super easy to grasp, the super bite size. Both of those content types can work, and if you feel so moved, you can have both of those content types within one content marketing program.

You can have some things that are bite-sized, and you can have some things that are longer and more thought out, really supported with more evidence. Just make sure, again, that it’s presented in a way that’s easy to consume. If it’s text content, things like: make sure you have plenty of subheads and make sure that your blog setup has plenty of white space. Things that make it easier to read online, easier to consume. But yeah, long form content can work really, really well. It tends to work for fewer people, but the people it works for tend to be the people who are actually going to do something with what you’re talking about. They’ll be the really good customers or they will create the most change in the arena that you’re trying to create change in.

Publishing Frequency Myths and Truths

I’ll wrap up with a thought from Rae Hoffman. If you don’t follow Rae you should, on Twitter she is SugarRae. Rae spelled R-A-E. Very smart woman, just very tough and brainy and smart at business, smart about SEO, and smart about business. Her suggestion for bad advice was: Write as much content as you can.” Then her thought accompanying this was: A plumber doesn’t need to publish three blog posts a week, nor does the world want them to.”

TJ had a thematically related addition to this that I thought was interesting. His bad advice was: Publish constantly … Google wants to see lots of fresh content.” Then he expanded on that a little bit with: Before Penguin, SEOs pushed publish weekly. Google wants to see fresh content and active sites. Now it’s Less is more. Quality! ”

TJ and I just had a little Twitter conversation about that. It’s true that Google likes fresh content. They do like content, they like sites that are publishing reasonably frequently. The kind of observation that I made in this conversation is, A pile of crap that’s steaming is fresh but it’s still crap.” If you are publishing a lot because you think that Google cares more about freshness or recency than it does about something good, you are making an error. I know it’d much rather see you publish less often, but publish something worth, really, really worth publishing than push out a lot of mediocre stuff. Volumes of mediocre thin content have a very hard time getting any traction and a very hard time actually getting any business goals accomplished.

There’s always that one guy who’s like: “I’ve been pushing out weak, thin, terrible content for, you know, 10 years and I’m a millionaire.” I think that’s great, but I gotta tell you I’m not seeing that work for the people who are in my communities and the people whose sites I’m looking at and helping them out with. Thin, weak stuff, really, most of the time it just doesn’t work well. If it’s working well today, it probably won’t work well next year.

Publish good stuff and then your publishing frequency is at least in part dictated. Well, how often can you publish good stuff and how often can you make that happen? I think Andy Crestodina has really articulated some lovely things on exactly that point in both of the interviews he did for this podcast. I can give you links to both of those again if you just drop Copyblogger.FM into your browser, you’ll be in good shape.

All right, well as I said, I don’t want this podcast to go on forever and trust me, it could. When you ask people for their favorite piece of bad advice, you get lots and lots of feedback. I am going to be compiling additional Tweets into a blog post along with a few of these and a few thoughts on these, and some thoughts from the Copyblogger editorial team, because they also had lots and lots of thoughts on their favorite piece of bad writing advice.

The Most Important Thing You Can Learn From Bad Advice

For me, the recurring theme, the thing that keeps coming back to mind as I read these and chuckle at them and agree with them or, in some cases, only agree with them partway, is that a lot of these pieces of advice have their place. They do have contexts in which they are good advice. It is a good idea to publish content reasonable frequently. It does help you out, not just with Google, but it helps you out with your audience. Now, don’t create more content than people want to hear from, but yeah, creating content more regularly really is helpful.

It’s not so much that these are always bad advice, but that they can be taken too far or they can be applied in a context that doesn’t make sense. What I want you to take away is: when you get a piece of writing advice, and it might very well be an excellent piece of writing advice for many people, if it just doesn’t work for you, then you just have to sort of use your observational skills and your critical faculties and say, “That’s probably a great piece of advice for a lot of people. I have not found it works well in my situation.” And go on from there.

Our observation, not about what we believe to be true, what we know that just ain’t so. It’s not about that, it’s about paying attention to what s working and what’s not working. It’s about moving forward on what’s working well and it’s about paying attention always. Just keeping your eyes open to the situation as it is, rather than the situation as you think it ought to be.

That’s it. Hope you will join me over on the blog. If you have a favorite piece of bad advice, and I know you do, please share it with us. You can share it either in the comments at Copyblogger.FM or feel free to drop something into the blog post over at Copyblogger.com. Either way, I d love to hear from you. You are welcome to Tweet me always @SoniaSimone and I am looking forward to hearing your favorite pieces of bad advice and if you want to let me know your favorite piece of good advice, I’ll take that one too.

That’s it for today, talk to you soon. Take care.

The Transcript

Laura Roeder on Building a Business that Supports the Lifestyle You Love

Voiceover: Rainmaker FM.

You’re listening to The Digital Entrepreneur, the show for folks who want to discover smarter ways to create and sell profitable digital goods and services. This podcast is a production of Digital Commerce Institute, the place to be for digital entrepreneurs. DCI features an in-depth ongoing instructional academy plus a live education and networking summit, where entrepreneurs from across the globe meet in person. For more information go to Rainmaker.FM/DigitalCommerce, that’s Rainmaker.FM/DigitalCommerce.

Jerod Morris: Welcome to The Digital Entrepreneur, the show where digital entrepreneurs share their stories and the lessons they’ve learned so that we can all be better in our online pursuits. I am your host Jerod Morris, the VP of marketing for Rainmaker Digital. This is episode number 38. This episode of The Digital Entrepreneur is brought to you by the Rainmaker Platform. I will tell you more about this complete solution for digital marketing and sales later, but you can check it out and take a free spin for yourself at Rainmaker.FM/Platform, that’s Rainmaker.FM/Platform.

On this week’s episode, I am joined by someone who was raised in an entrepreneurial family. She got her start at a young age and she got it actually when she started selling painted rocks. Although, her family members were her only customers at the time, and she is a self-learner when it comes to the web and online communications. After moving to Chicago to start her professional career, she quit her job at 22 years old.

Since then, she’s relocated several times, currently in Austin, Texas. She’s gone from a one-woman design business to a scalable social media consulting business. Now, obviously running a SaaS platform called Meet Edgar. She aspires to help people’s small businesses succeed beyond their wildest dreams by making social media marketing plain and simple to understand and implement, and giving them the tools to do it. She is Laura Roeder and she is a digital entrepreneur. Laura, welcome to The Digital Entrepreneur. It’s great to have you here.

Laura Roeder: Thank you Jerod, I’m very excited to be here.

Jerod Morris: It was nice to finally meet you in person at Digital Commerce Summit a couple of months back. That was nice.

Laura Roeder: Yes, yes. We had been emailing for many years and now I can picture you when I talk to you.

Jerod Morris: Yes, and you did a great job, by the way. Your presentation was fantastic. It was great having you there. It was a fun event.

Laura Roeder: Thank you, yeah it was.

How Being a Mom has Influenced Her Ability to Reap the Benefits of Digital Entrepreneurship

Jerod Morris: Let’s dive in here, and I’m going to start out with you the way I start out with everybody on this show, which is asking you this question about digital entrepreneurship and the value that you derive most from it. Because, I think, for most digital entrepreneurs the number one benefit that we get from it is freedom. The freedom to choose our projects, to chart our course to change our lives and our family’s lives for the better. What’s the biggest benefit that you have derived from being a digital entrepreneur?

Laura Roeder: Definitely the freedom and more specifically now that I am a mom, I feel like I’m really reaping the benefits of building this career for the past ten years. My son is almost two and I was able to take three months off maternity leave when he was born. I actually just worked part time for the first year of his life. Now I’m back to full time but I have a very flexible schedule and I go home for lunch for two hours every day. I pick him up from preschool in the afternoon and I can take time off whenever I want. Seeing some of my friends who have young children and both parents are working full time and it’s like, finding the time to go to Target is all they have time for on the weekend. I’m just very thankful that I’ve made these choices and built this life because it allows me to have a lot of freedom and I just think a lot less stress in my life.

Jerod Morris: I was looking at your website in preparation for this and one of the lines that really stuck out is where you say that you’re big on building a business that supports the lifestyle that you love. It sounds like you’ve really been able to do that.

Laura Roeder: Yeah, I mean that’s been very deliberate for me. I mean, even the switch from training to software was very deliberate in creating a business that I could really take a lot of time away from, and could continue to grow without me.

Jerod Morris: I guess to start here would be good to frame this by just giving people the overview of what you do, because you’re running Edgar now. Explain what Edgar does for folks who may not know it.

Laura Roeder: Yeah, Edgar is a tool to repurpose your content on social media. You create a library of all of your old blog posts and whatever else you send out on social, like funny images, inspirational quotes and whatever. Edgar pulls your content for you and also repurposes it over and over again, so that instead of having to manually schedule every update, Edgar looks at your library, makes sure that all of the content that you wrote a year ago that’s still valuable, it’s still getting shown on social, it’s still getting that audience.

Jerod Morris: Before you got into software, you alluded to this, you were doing scalable consulting for social media.

Laura Roeder: Mm-hmm (affirmative)

Shifting Gears into Digital Entrepreneurship

Jerod Morris: Let’s go back to even before that. Take us back to before you became a digital entrepreneur. What were you doing and what was missing that led you to want to make a change?

Laura Roeder: Well, I became a digital entrepreneur really young. I’ve only had one real job. My first job out of college was a designer at an ad agency. I was there for about a year and half and the freedom was definitely part of it. I remember having a friend visit me. I was living in Chicago at the time. She visited me and I worked til 6:30 or whatever, and we’d have time to have dinner and then that was it. That was all I got to see her while she was visiting. I remember when I visited her, she had a more flexible schedule and she could take the whole day to spend time with me. I thought, Ah, that’s what I want to be able to do.

And I was kind of bored of my work and I wanted more control over what my work was and how I spent my day. So I quit that job when I was 22 to start working for myself as a freelance designer. I’ve worked for myself ever since, for the past ten years.

Jerod Morris: You were a freelance designer and then you basically took some of what you’d been doing as a freelance designer, some of what you had learned and then parlayed that into teaching other people? How did you then get into social media and doing that part of it?

Laura Roeder: As a designer I was making websites for my clients, and just because I was young and naive, I thought that when you made a website you were also telling your clients what content to put on it and the strategy for traffic and SEO. I just thought I’m making the website. They need to know how to get traffic and how to drive business, and how to turn their leads into customers. I would just help them with all that stuff, that was what was free and they’d pay me for designing and building the site.

Around 2007 – 2008 social media started to become a thing. My clients would just ask me, What is it? Should I be using it? How do I do it? Eventually, enough people told me you know, you could get paid just for talking to people about social media, just for teaching them, at the time it was Twitter, teaching them how to use Twitter. I thought, That sounds like a sweet gig, talking to people about Twitter. Sign me up. That’s how I became a social media consultant, which very quickly turned into productized training.

How All the Small Choices She s Made Over the Years Have Added Up to Something Incredible

Jerod Morris: Tell me about the moment in your career as a digital entrepreneur thus far that you’re the most proud of.

Laura Roeder: Oh man, at this point there’s a larger team. At Meet Edgar we have 24 employees. We’re all remote so we don’t have any kind of office. We meet up twice a year. For me, what’s very fulfilling is providing great jobs. For whatever reason, that’s even more inspiring to me than the work we do for our customers is getting to provide a workplace that people can really do their best work and they love showing up to every day. My greatest moment as a digital entrepreneur has happened, honestly, every time we’ve met in person because every time it’s more people.

The last one was actually in Denver and we filled a conference room, I mean a small conference room, but we filled a conference room nonetheless. We had to bring in extra chairs and it was just so moving and so amazing to me looking around the room and thinking, I’m supporting these people s families from this company that I built on the Internet. So often it just feels like this imaginary thing, like we never see any of the money, it’s all people paying us on credit cards, going through straight to our bank account. It’s really nice to have this physical representation, seeing my team in a room, saying, Wow, this is a real thing that I built.

Jerod Morris: You know, that’s so interesting, because when we get together at Rainmaker Digital, since I’ve been with the company we’ve had four or five of those meetups. It is always so powerful to get everybody in the same room. I have, of course, done it from the perspective of one of the people working for Rainmaker Digital. I can’t imagine how that must feel in your shoes or in Brian Clark’s shoes when you’re sitting there and looking at it. What you started is what led to all of this. That has to be just such a powerful moment and such a powerful realization.

Laura Roeder: It really is. It’s just amazing seeing that an idea and just that little bit of work everyday, because when you’re in it, it’s just like you’re plodding along every day a little bit more. All these small choices that you make over the years really do add up to something incredible.

Jerod Morris: Yeah, and it reminds you of your why. Why you’re doing it in the first place.

Laura Roeder: Yes.

Jerod Morris: Okay, so let’s take a quick break and when we come back I’m going to ask Laura about her most humbling moment as a digital entrepreneur. Stay with us.

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Now back to my interview with Laura Roeder.

Finding Humility in the Various Life Experiences of Your Customers

Jerod Morris: All right Laura, you just told us about your most proud moment as a digital entrepreneur. Tell us now about the most humbling moment in your career as a digital entrepreneur, and most importantly what you learned from it.

Laura Roeder: Something that’s always really inspired me when I was doing training, is the people who really didn’t consider themselves very computer savvy and knew that this is what they needed to do in order to grow their business, in order to keep up. Because I think so many people limit themselves and think, Oh, I’m too old, or, I’m not very good with computers, I can’t really learn that.

I remember I had … when I was doing training programs and sometimes you could buy the premium package and get phone calls with me. I remember having a call with this company that was very old school, brick and mortar, and the owner had sent me some emails that were just so sweet that were like, We just so appreciate what you do and we’ve learned so much from you. We got on a call and when I started talking to the guy he started laughing, hearing my voice, and he was, “We call you the girl that talks to us from the computer. Now here you are really talking to us.” He just thought it was so funny, like it was just this novelty for him that he’d heard my voice on the computer and now I was a real person.

It was very humbling, someone who had just such a big learning curve about online marketing and social media. Seeing that he was, I’m going to spend my time. I’m going to spend my money. I’m going to do the premium package so that I can get more one-on-one help and I’m going to learn this. I’m going to have a great business because of it. I really admire that kind of determination and that really is something that I found very inspiring in the training business. Because, it can just be easy to create this content and just forget about who’s consuming it and the impact that it’s having.

For some people this was a game changer, right? Because for a lot of people it’s like, Okay, I already know what content marketing is. I’m improving my skills 5%. But, some people, this was like, Wow, I just took my business from a brick and mortar to literally a global business because of what I learned in this class. That is very humbling.

Striving to Maintain Stability in a Volatile World

Jerod Morris: Yeah, no absolutely. Let’s fast forward to now. What is the one word that you would use to sum up the status of your business as it stands today? One word.

Laura Roeder: The word that’s been guiding me lately is stable. Something that has been a challenge for us in the past two years … Meet Edgar is only two and a half years old but we’ve grown really fast. We’re at a four million annual reoccurring revenue, starting from zero two and half years ago.

Jerod Morris: Wow.

Laura Roeder: We’ve had some pretty fast growth. Hiring to keep up with that growth has been really challenging. Our goal for the end of the year has been to really build out our teams for 2017. Instead of hiring every month, we’re like, Who do we want for the whole year and we’re going to hire them by the end of this year or early next year? We’re not 100% there yet, but my dream is to, instead of feeling like there’s this frantic growth, obviously keep growing the customer base, keep growing the revenue, but the team to feel really stable and this really tight knit community of people who have gotten really comfortable working together, and have really gotten their rhythms down. You know how it is when you work with someone for a few years and you can read their mind and you know what they’re going to do. I love to have that kind of rhythm within our own company, so stable is what we’re looking for right now.

Why Constantly Innovating Helps Her Deal With the Challenge of Bringing in New Customers

Jerod Morris: Okay, very good. What is your biggest recurring pain point as a digital entrepreneur?

Laura Roeder: I would actually say that it just continues to be customer acquisition, because you have to keep innovating. I’m definitely a big believer in the bread and butter and just doing basics of online marketing. That’s absolutely how we get the majority of our customers. But, as we continue to grow, we have to keep expanding our thinking both about how to up our game and improve our content marketing and social media marketing game, and totally new channels that we might want to explore. Customer acquisition, it s fun, but it is an ongoing pain point because it’s a problem that’s never solved.

Jerod Morris: Yeah, that’s true for everybody. You mentioned earlier how much satisfaction you got from that moment when everybody was together and you had that realization about how this all happened because of what you started. I know that gives you a lot of satisfaction on a macro level, but on micro level, what element of your work gives you the most satisfaction on a daily basis?

Laura Roeder: My job is now is mostly coaching the leaders of our teams. What gives me the most satisfaction is seeing people make hard decisions. When something s not going right and a tough call needs to be made, maybe a project needs to be scrapped that we’ve already put a lot of effort into. Maybe we need to start over with a new direction. Maybe a team member isn’t working out or a freelancer isn’t working out and needs to be let go. Watching the leaders on my team make those tough calls and put into action those tough calls, I love it.

Using Your Own Tools to Make Life Easier

Jerod Morris: Yeah, that’s great. Let’s open up your toolbox here a little bit, if you don’t mind. What is the one technology tool that contributes the most to your success as a digital entrepreneur?

Laura Roeder: Okay, well I have to cheat and say Meet Edgar.

Jerod Morris: You can do that.

Laura Roeder: You know it’s funny, so obviously we use Edgar. The person who does our social media at our company, basically his attention went elsewhere. There was more important stuff that he had to do, so he took a lot of attention off social. We’re trying to figure out, Who do we need to hire? Do we need a freelancer or do we need a full time? We just stopped messing with it for a while and we realized Edgar handles our social, because now we have our customer support team going in and responding to people and monitoring the daily activity.

As far as keeping up with the content, Edgar really does that for us and Edgar really sends everything out. You really can just check in once a quarter and refresh things. That was a pretty cool moment to see, Oh, this thing that we would have previously had to hire maybe a full time role for, Edgar is just doing for us. That’s pretty cool.

Jerod Morris: Yeah and by eating your own dog food you found that out. That’s nice, and that’s what you designed it for so hey, that’s good. What is the non-technology tool that contributes the most?

Laura Roeder: Keeping focused on goals. At the start of every week I write my one or two big picture goals for the company. I’m always asking myself, Okay, is my time really helping to move the needle on that goal? That’s my biggest non-tech tool.

The One Word She d Use to Describe Where She Wants to Take Her Business in the Future and Why You Should Strive For it Too

Jerod Morris: Very nice. Earlier I asked you for the one word that you’d use to sum up the status of your business as it stands today, and you said stable. When we talk again in a year, what would you want that one word to be?

Laura Roeder: What immediately comes to mind is joyful.

Jerod Morris: Oh, that’s s new one, I like that.

Laura Roeder: Yeah, I guess it’s unusual, but I would love to have that feeling for our team and for our customers. That using Edgar actually gives them joy, whether it’s seeing the results, seeing the time that’s freed up. Same with the people at the company. Obviously, there’s going to be some challenging problems that they’re solving, but if you’re doing work that you really love, it’s really fun to do that. To me, that word means we’ve gotten past some of our growing pains on the team level and on the product level. Everything just feels smooth and it’s like, This is fun. It’s fun to show up and do this work every day.

Jerod Morris: I like that, joyful. Okay, that’s a good one. I’ve got some rapid-fire questions to end here. Are you ready for the challenge?

Laura Roeder: I’m ready.

Rapid-Fire Question Time

Jerod Morris: All right, if you could have every person who will ever work with you or for you read one book, what would it be?

Laura Roeder: Scaling Up by Verne Harnish. We use a ton of the systems. It’s our business Bible.

Jerod Morris: Scaling Up by Verne Harnish?

Laura Roeder: Mm-hmm (affirmative)

Jerod Morris: I haven’t read that one yet.

Laura Roeder: It used to be called Rockefeller Habits.

Jerod Morris: Okay, very nice. If you could have a 30 minute Skype call to discuss your business with anyone tomorrow, who would it be?

Laura Roeder: Wait, I thought I had my answer, sorry. You re gonna have to edit so it sounds faster.

Jerod Morris: Oh no, oh no, we’ll leave it in here. It’s okay, this makes for good audio.

Laura Roeder: Wait, who do I want to choose?

Jerod Morris: Who are you deciding between?

Laura Roeder: I don’t know their names. I would choose someone at Uber, but I don’t know who, because it’s probably not Travis who is the big name person that you see. They’re a fascinating company to me for how much action they take so quickly. It just seems like someone has an idea and then the next day it’s implemented in 40 countries. You see differences when you Uber in different cities. They have it localized and improved for that location. It’s just incredible to me. I don’t know who I want to talk to at Uber, but I just want to know how they do that.

Jerod Morris: Somebody, yeah. What’s the first question that you would ask?

Laura Roeder: I would ask, How do you execute so quickly? How do you take things at such a huge scale and execute so many ideas without breaking everything?

Jerod Morris: Yeah, that’d be great to know the answer to that question. What is the one email newsletter that you can’t do without?

Laura Roeder: Hiten Shah’s SaaS Weekly is a pretty good one.

Jerod Morris: Love that one, I subscribe to that one and I believe we’ve had that mentioned on here a couple of times. It’s a really good one. What non-book piece of art had the biggest influence on you as a digital entrepreneur?

Laura Roeder: I have no valid answer to this one.

Jerod Morris: Nothing?

Laura Roeder: I don t think … I haven’t been influenced by art that is not books.

Jerod Morris: No song, no movie, no anything? How about a moment?

Laura Roeder: What moment had the biggest influence?

Jerod Morris: Maybe a scene or a location, like a trip that you took or a place that you were.

Laura Roeder: Okay, I’m going to think of an answer.

Jerod Morris: Anything.

Laura Roeder: Anything! Like, Give me something!

Jerod Morris: Something that’s not a book.

Laura Roeder: Okay, I guess, to choose a place that had an influence on me. I mentioned visiting a friend and she had a lot of free time. When I first started working for myself I was living in Chicago. Much love to Chicago, but I did not grow up in a cold place and I could not handle the winter. My best friend from college had moved to LA. I just remember that first time I visited her and the weather was just beautiful and it was such a fun city. I thought, Why do I live in Chicago? I want to move to LA. And I did. I did move to LA, and I was able to do that with the work that I had set up. I know so many people that would just sort of remain a lifelong dream because they’d be like, How am I going to get a job? I don’t know anyone there and I d have to start over. That visit really influenced me to choose what I wanted in life.

Gaining Productivity by Cutting Out the Phone Temptation

Jerod Morris: Very nice, and that all goes back to being able to design the life that you want to lead, and building a business around that, which is so important. What productivity hack has had the biggest impact on your ability to get more meaningful work done?

Laura Roeder: Getting off my phone. I do no tech after 9:00 pm. I do not keep my phone in my room, so I’m not seeing it before I go to bed, or when I wake up in the morning. I take social apps off my phone. I take email off my phone. I found that it makes a huge difference to be able to really start my workday when I sit down and start my workday; as opposed to I half look through my emails that morning. I try to respond to one, but then it got too complicated and abandoned it. You get this feeling that you’ve done work, but you haven’t actually done anything. Not checking Slack, not checking email, til I m actually sitting down at my desk ready to work is huge for me.

Jerod Morris: Interesting, so no email either. Even if you leave the office and go pick up your kid or whatever, you don’t want to be able to check your email when you’re in the line? You want it totally off there.

Laura Roeder: Exactly, because the thing is, I can’t do anything about it. If someone needs me, which they never do, they could text me. The problem with reading email when I’m waiting for my kid at pick up, anything that’s worth responding to, I’m not able to … Maybe I need to reference a document, maybe I want to write something more in-depth. I’m not able to do that, so to me, it often gives you this false feeling like you’ve handled something, but you haven’t actually been able to close the loop. Now you’re just thinking about it on the drive home. You can’t do anything about it. I find it much better to just have focused work time where I can actually close those loops.

Jerod Morris: I really like that idea. I can’t promise that I won’t just go start deleting stuff off my phone right after we get done with this, because that’s pretty inspiring, actually.

Laura Roeder: Give it a try.

Jerod Morris: Yeah, I may try that, I may try that. What is the single best way for someone inspired by today’s discussion to get in touch with you?

Laura Roeder: I still love Twitter.

Jerod Morris: Only when you’re at your desk?

Laura Roeder: I don’t have Twitter on my phone, actually.

Jerod Morris: No, that’s what I mean. Only when you’re at your desk.

Laura Roeder: Yeah, I’m LKR on Twitter, so that’s a great way to get in touch with me.

Jerod Morris: LKR, fantastic. Well, Laura this was a great conversation. Thank you so much for taking the time. I really appreciate it.

Laura Roeder: Thank you.

Jerod Morris: That will do it for this week’s episode of The Digital Entrepreneur. My thanks as always to our great production team led by Kelton Reid and Toby Lyles as well as Caroline Early and Will DeWitt for helping me put this episode together. My thanks of course to Laura Roeder for taking the time to speak with us, and my thanks to you for being here and listening to The Digital Entrepreneur. I always greatly appreciate your attention and the time that you invest in the show. Always feel free to send me any comments or thoughts. Tweet me @jerodmorris, J-E-R-O-D M-O-R-R-I-S.

A quick programming note, this will be our last episode of The Digital Entrepreneur for 2016. We’ll be taking a little break but we will be back at the beginning of the new year with new episodes, so watch out for that. In the meantime, enjoy the end of 2016. Enjoy the holiday season however it is that you celebrate it, and I look forward to talking with you in the new year. Take care.

The Transcript

Lessons on Business and Life from the Zen Master of Marketing

Voiceover: Rainmaker FM.

You’re listening to The Digital Entrepreneur, the show for folks who want to discover smarter ways to create and sell profitable digital goods and services. This podcast is a production of Digital Commerce Institute, the place to be for digital entrepreneurs. DCI features an in-depth ongoing instructional academy plus a live education and networking summit where entrepreneurs from across the globe meet in person. For more information go to Rainmaker.FM/DigitalCommerce, that’s Rainmaker.FM/DigitalCommerce.

Jerod Morris: Welcome back to the Digital Entrepreneur, the show where digital entrepreneurs share their stories and the lessons they’ve learned so we can all be better in our online pursuits. I’m your host Jerod Morris, the VP of marketing for Rainmaker Digital and this is episode number 37. This episode of the Digital Entrepreneur is brought to you by the Rainmaker Platform. I will tell you more about this complete solution for digital marketing and sales later, but you can check it out and take a free spin for yourself at Rainmaker.FM/Platform, that’s Rainmaker.FM/Platform.

On this week’s episode I have a guest that’s been honored at both the White House and the United Nations as one of the top one hundred young entrepreneurs in the country. She is a visionary strategist for the digital age, a web and TV personality, a best selling author, and the award winning CEO of the Marketing Zen Group, a global online marketing and digital PR company that helps turn successful companies into industry leaders. She helps brands reach the next level by leveraging digital opportunities to drive meaningful results. She is Shama Hyder, AKA the zen master of marketing and she is a digital entrepreneur. Shama, welcome to the Digital Entrepreneur. It is wonderful to have you on the show.

Shama Hyder: It’s a pleasure to be here. Thank you so much for having me.

Jerod Morris: Yeah, you’re an award winning entrepreneur, you’ve shared the stage with presidents. We appreciate you taking the time to join us and lend some insight on your path as an entrepreneur.

Shama Hyder: This is my favorite topic so a pleasure.

Why She Strives to Have a Student Mindset (No Matter What)

Jerod Morris: Very good, very good. Let’s start out where we always start out with our guests. I’ve always believed that the number one benefit of digital entrepreneurship is freedom. The freedom to choose your projects and to chart your course and ultimately the freedom to change your life and your family’s life for the better. What is the biggest benefit that you have derived from being a digital entrepreneur?

Shama Hyder: Yeah, I would say definitely the freedom has been a huge part but also just the ability to make a contribution without boundaries or without limits. Really, I think as an entrepreneur it’s the limits that you put on yourself. I think, for me, that’s a very gratifying part of it.

Jerod Morris: All right, so let’s go back. Take me back to before you became a digital entrepreneur. What were you doing and what was missing that led you to want to make a change?

Shama Hyder: Well, I was in school, so I think, unlike a lot of people who sort of go from the career world, I started the company right out of school. I think, just to rewind slightly back, I finished school and I thought that I would go get a job, which is what you’re told you’re supposed to do and whatnot except for me my industry didn’t exist and the idea of social media, social media marketing is just so new. The industry really, honestly, did not exist.

Jerod Morris: Yeah. Now, had you always been an entrepreneur growing up, like is this something that was just in your blood that you had always done?

Shama Hyder: I think so. I’ve always been entrepreneurial, and so … Both my parents are entrepreneurs and, but I think that actually made me not want to do it as much. Because I saw them, and we have very different styles of entrepreneurship, I can put it that way. I guess I’d only seen one facet of that but yeah, I think I’ve always been very entrepreneurial and I’ve always enjoyed the idea of having my own rules and my own way to contribute to society in a way that’s not limited by anyone else.

The Lessons She Took From Her Parents (that You Can Implement Too)

Jerod Morris: You mentioned that you have different styles. How would you describe the differences in your styles?

Shama Hyder: I think my parents with their entrepreneurship, they were also very spontaneous in a lot of ways. I think some of the challenges I saw them deal with was more towards not being as organized. I’m more type A than they are.

Jerod Morris: How did you come by that? Have you just always been that way?

Shama Hyder: I think when you grow up with parents who are not type A it forces you to be type A and so yeah, I think in some ways, to make up for that, even as a kid … Yeah, so I think I got the best of both worlds in many ways.

Jerod Morris: Can you walk us through how your business is organized, because obviously you have Zen Marketing, so you have a marketing agency and you’re taking clients. Then you also are a business unto yourself with your speaking and with the books that you’ve written, how do you keep everything organized and manage your priorities?

Shama Hyder: Yeah, I think that’s exactly it, it’s priorities, it’s knowing what are the absolute things I have to accomplish today and then everything else revolves around that.

Jerod Morris: What kind of systems do you have for helping you do that and make those tough decisions?

Shama Hyder: I want to say pen and paper is sometimes the best. You think it’s tools but it’s not, right. You can have tools that help you focus or support your productivity but at the end of the day it’s really you rolling up your sleeves and saying, This is what I ve got to do. I think certain things that do help, like there is a tool I use that’s like a thirty minute timer on my phone and it’s great because I’ll do … I think it’s also known as the Pomodoro effect where you take, you focus on something for thirty minutes and you go do something else. That certainly helps and try to focus in on things that need me. But of course you only work in such, my schedule, there’s not always a set schedule because the media might call and they might be doing a story on something and they want me in or a client says Oh, we’ve got this great opportunity, can we brainstorm? In so many ways, yes I can have a framework for my schedule, but I have to stay flexible as well.

Jerod Morris: What kind of role have some of the digital products that you’ve created like the eBooks, what kind of role have those played in the growth of your business?

Shama Hyder: Yes, well I ve got two books out in bookstores. One is called The Zen of Social Media Marketing, which is now in its fourth edition and Momentum, my second book, which is about marketing in the digital age that just came out a couple of months ago. And both have been, say, pretty crucial in helping with business development and building a thought leadership platform, and both of them came about from market demand. I wrote The Zen when people really there were no books on social media, where people really needed some insight on what it meant to do, to use Facebook or to use these platforms and tools for business. Being able to create something based on market demand has always, I think, been a key to success.

How to Maintain a Trajectory of Success

Jerod Morris: One trend that we have seen is a lot of people who are in client work will end up starting another portion of their business around digital products, whether it’s courses or membership sites. Do you have any plans to do anything like that or are you going to stay on the same trajectory that you’ve been on?

Shama Hyder: I think there’s always possibility. For me, what’s more important is, How do you stay relevant, right, to your audience, and how do you constantly give them something they want? If that looks like digital products, then it will be digital products. But, I’ve never been one to say, Okay, this is the way we’re going to go and then everything else gets forced around it. It’s much more, Let’s keep listening to the audience. Let’s see where our clients want. Let’s see what the audience is asking for, and then create around that.

Jerod Morris: Yeah. Shama, tell me about the milestone or moment in your career as an entrepreneur that you’re the most proud of.

Shama Hyder: One moment that I think that for me was really sort of a personal like, Oh, wow, moment was visiting a client’s Christmas party A client invited us to a Christmas party, we’d been working with them for two years at this point and we were handling all their digital marketing and attending their Christmas party from the year prior, it had seemed like the company had tripled. All these people and their families and the CEO, I remember was talking to him and he said yeah, We’ve grown so much with your help in the last two years. These are all the people that we’ve now been able to hire.

What was great about that was just to know, sometimes I think that you do, you see the impact on bottom lines, but you don’t see the full societal human impact, right? How we were helping with the marketing and helping this company grow, they in turn were able to hire these people and then, of course, there were these kids and families that were impacted by that. For me, that was a really touching moment in terms of what we do and the effect it really has.

Jerod Morris: Boy, that had to be just a great moment. To just see there and see, yeah, the impact that you had and the help on real people, like you said, because sometimes we can lose sight of that fact. That had to be great.

Shama Hyder: Totally, and it was. And we’ve had moments like that and I’ve had moments like that, being able to see how what we do impacts people.

Jerod Morris: Yeah. All right, let’s take a quick break. When we come back I will ask Shama about the most humbling moment that she has had as digital entrepreneur.

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How She Finds Humbling Moments Every Day and is Always Learning Something New

Jerod Morris: All right, so Shama, tell me about the most humbling moment in your career as a digital entrepreneur, and most importantly, what you learned from it?

Shama Hyder: I think I have humbling moments everyday, honestly. I don’t know, really it’s not like one like Oh my God, I was so humbled, but everyday I think I learn something new and for me it’s a mindset, right, to always stay in that kind of student mindset of there’s … I feel like things make you humble when you get to a certain point or like, does that make sense?

Jerod Morris: Totally.

Shama Hyder: Right, like there’s some place for you to fall from? Or there’s some place to be like Oh wow, I really thought I was going in one direction and this opened my eyes. I think I always come from that perspective where I’m a student. I learn so much from my employees all the time because, let’s face it, I’m younger than all of them, most of them. For me it’s always been a process of being a student and learning so I don’t know if there’s one experience that I would say, I was really humbled by it. I’ll say that everyday there’s at least ten moments in a day where I’m like, Oh, well I don’t know it all, good thing I didn’t think I knew it all.

Jerod Morris: I think that’s probably an indication of why you’ve been successful because obviously those moments of humility are also paths for learning and opportunities to learn. I think the fact that you view it that way is a great sign for your continued growth, because that’s what will keep you learning and growing, so that’s great.

Shama Hyder: Thank you, I certainly think having a student mindset no matter what you’re doing is the way to go. You know, and when the clients you can always tell the difference from the clients who are, I love that our clients are like this, they want to learn. They want to grow. They’re curious, and I have a lot respect for curiosity. I think it keeps you from ever thinking that you know it all, because the moment you do I think is when you have that really humbling moment.

Jerod Morris: Yeah.

Shama Hyder: I just prefer to always keep myself in that mode.

One Word that Sums Up Her Status of Business Today

Jerod Morris: Yeah, absolutely. Let’s fast forward to now. What is the one word that you would use to sum up the status of your business as it stands today?

Shama Hyder: Growing. I mean, really, it’s growing. And maybe, you know what would be fair, I would say, if I was going to be really specific, I’d say momentum, which is the name of my second book. I think part of me writing that and choosing that name was because I feel like, as a company, we have a lot of momentum right now. We’re one of the top social media digital PR agencies in the country, if not in the world, in terms of just being how early we started on to this path. I’m really excited with how much momentum we have and where things are going.

Shama s Biggest Recurring Pain Point Right Now

Jerod Morris: Very cool. What is your biggest recurring pain point as an entrepreneur right now?

Shama Hyder: I would say a reoccurring pain point, and this is just something is constantly, especially in our industry, keeping up. To be totally honest that’s a challenge for anybody in this industry, but it really is when you’re looking at things and you’re saying, What changed while we were sleeping? That’s the joke at the office, right?

Jerod Morris: Yeah.

Shama Hyder: I think and it’s a challenge I love, but it is definitely a challenge to be able to keep you and to know what’s changing, how do we … We have to stay a step ahead for our clients. To stay relevant is the only way that we’re going to be useful to them.

Jerod Morris: How do you do that with so much information out there? How do you make sure that you’re getting the right information and finding out what you need to stay relevant?

Shama Hyder: I think, at this point, I’m very lucky that because I’m an investor in things and I’m, I write for multiple columns and I do a lot of media, that things find me, which is a great place to be.

Jerod Morris: Yeah.

Shama Hyder: I think that’s a nice thing is that I’m able to get sort of what I would say is the early scoop or the insider, the early invites and things to know what’s new.

Jerod Morris: That’s good.

Shama Hyder: Or what’s around the bend, yeah.

The Most Satisfying Part of Her Job

Jerod Morris: You mentioned earlier how rewarding it was to be at that Christmas party and see the impact that your work was able to have on real people, on families, I’m curious what element of your work on a daily basis gives you the most satisfaction? Like the actual just getting down, doing the work, what part of it do you enjoy the most?

Shama Hyder: For me, it’s honestly one of my favorite parts, is the strategic part, working with our clients, coming up with campaign ideas, talking with the team, figuring out how we’re going to help our clients move the needle, whether it’s with their social media campaigns or influence their marketing or digital PR campaign we’re launching. Like, these are all the things that really get me excited at the end of the day.

One Recommended Tool

Jerod Morris: Excellent. Let’s open up your toolbox if we can, and I’m curious what is one technology tool that contributes the most to your success as an entrepreneur? I know you mentioned earlier the app that you have that helps you keep track of your time and keeps track of your priorities. Are there any other technology tools that really stand out as helping contribute?

Shama Hyder: I’m a big fan of Slack. We use that. It’s a communication tool, which I’m a huge fan of that. Just allows me to keep in touch with our team. Our team is all over the US. Our clients are global. We have clients from Lithuania to Hong Kong, so definitely a huge plus in that way.

Non-Tech Ways to Keep Yourself Grounded

Jerod Morris: In addition to pen and paper, which you mentioned earlier, are there any non-technology tools that contribute the most, that help you out?

Shama Hyder: Non-technology tools aside from pen and paper, I would say that I have some favorite apps, things like that but you know my dogs, they’re pretty non-tech. They’re great because they remind you what life is really about.

Jerod Morris: Exactly, exactly. That s why I like asking that question.

Shama Hyder: It’s not Instagram Stories.

Jerod Morris: Right, right. No, that’s wonderful. Okay, so earlier I asked you what’s the one word that you would use to sum up the status of your business as it stands today. You said growing and momentum, we accept both of those.

Shama Hyder: Okay.

Jerod Morris: When we talk again in a year, what would you want that one word to be?

Shama Hyder: Wow, I think that would be a good word. Why not aim high, right?

Jerod Morris: Yeah. What will it take to get there for you?

Shama Hyder: I think just doing what we’re doing. I think that’s the path we’re on. I’m really excited about how we’ve grown and we don’t do any outbound marketing. Everyone who works with us comes through client referrals or they come through our own inbound efforts and that’s really, to me, that’s really powerful.

Jerod Morris: That’s a good spot to be in.

Shama Hyder: Yeah, I’m grateful for it, yes.

Rapid-Fire Question Time

Jerod Morris: Yes. So I have a few rapid-fire questions to close out. Are you ready?

Shama Hyder: Yes.

Jerod Morris: If you could have every person who will ever work with you or for you, read one book, what would it be?

Shama Hyder: Shoot, I know this is going to sound like an unfair question or an unfair answer perhaps but honestly it would be The Zen of Social Media Marketing and we do. We ask people to read it because so much of that is my philosophy. It’s the company philosophy, so in some ways it is like understanding what we’re about and how, what our perspective and approach is on digital marketing.

Jerod Morris: That’s a good way to make sure everybody understands that, and understands the mindset and culture that you’re trying to create, so I think that’s a very fair answer.

Shama Hyder: Exactly. And it helps when someone comes in when we’re hiring and they’ve read the book. To me it’s like, Okay they’re a step ahead. They are already familiar with this. Like, they know what we’re about to some degree.

Jerod Morris: Yeah, so memo to anybody looking to get a job: read the book. If you could have a 30 minute Skype call to discuss your business with anyone tomorrow, who would it be?

Shama Hyder: I don’t think that’s funny because it’s not … I feel like the people who work with us find us so I don’t know who I’d want to be able to talk to. Like totally, honestly, I think it would be the person that is really interested in working with us. Like that would be where my interest is.

Jerod Morris: Okay.

Shama Hyder: That’s the person I’d want to talk to.

Jerod Morris: Yeah. What is the one email newsletter that you can’t do without?

Shama Hyder: Boy, there’s so many, I like my Quora Digest. The digest I get from Quora.com, that’s like the questions people are asking and I find myself looking on it often, so, yeah.

Jerod Morris: Yeah, Quora has some great stuff.

Shama Hyder: Yeah.

Jerod Morris: What non-book piece of art had the biggest influence on you as an entrepreneur?

Shama Hyder: You know, there’s a really cool sculpture at Burning Man. I don’t know if people have seen it but it’s two … it’s kind of a wire frame of two people who are arguing and they’ve got their backs to each other but within that wire frame you can see the children within each other and they’re facing each other trying to find a solution. I always think that’s touching, like regardless of where we are as adults or we’re in our kind of cages you know, inside it makes like the soul within salutes the other souls that it recognizes. I think that’s a really moving piece of art.

Jerod Morris: That’s great. That’s a great answer. What productivity hack has had the biggest impact on your ability to get more meaningful work done?

Shama Hyder: Close out browser windows. I mean honestly it’s amazing how much we’ll get done when you focus on one thing at a time and you don’t have multiple, I mean just me closing out browser windows has been huge.

Jerod Morris: Yeah, it’s amazing how those can just accumulate. You don’t even realize it.

Shama Hyder: Well, such small things, and the other day I learned an interesting hack which I think is great. For people who play on their phones a lot or find that to be kind of, where they keep going back. Turning your screen to be a grayscale. You can do that on the iPhone, so everything’s grayed out, the colors go away and stuff and you find that you’re just, you want to play with it less, which I think in some ways can be a good thing.

Jerod Morris: That’s interesting.

Shama Hyder: Yeah.

Jerod Morris: I might have to try that. Shama, what’s the best way for someone who is inspired by today’s discussion to get in touch with you or to get more from you?

Shama Hyder: Certainly we’ve got two sites, MarketingZen.com and then ShamaHyder.com, both the sites have tons of content so if this is the type of content that you’re interested in and especially marketing, those are the places to go.

Jerod Morris: Excellent. Well Shama, thank you so much for joining us. Good luck getting to wow over the next year, hope you get there and yeah, really appreciate your time and insight.

Shama Hyder: Thanks so much. Pleasure to be here.

Jerod Morris: And that concludes this week’s episode of the Digital Entrepreneur. My thanks as always to Toby Lyles and our production team along with Caroline Early and Will Dewitt for helping to make this episode possible. My thanks to Shama Hyder for taking the time to join me for this discussion. I really appreciated her insight. It was great to get to talk with her and I’m sure you feel the same, and of course my thanks to you for being here and for listening. I always appreciate your attention and your support on the Digital Entrepreneur. If you ever have any questions, comments, thoughts, or anything, or just want to connect send me a tweet @jerodmorris. I always love hearing from you, and we’ll be back next week for another brand new episode of the Digital Entrepreneur. Take care.

The Transcript

Just Because You Can, Doesn’t Mean You Should (Plus Other Life Lessons from Seth Spears)

Voiceover: Rainmaker.FM. You are listening to The Digital Entrepreneur, the show for folks who want to discover smarter ways to create and sell profitable digital goods and services. This podcast is a production of Digital Commerce Institute, the place to be for digital entrepreneurs. DCI features an in-depth, ongoing instructional academy, plus a live education and networking summit where entrepreneurs from across the globe meet in person. For more information, go to Rainmaker.FM/DigitalCommerce.

Jerod Morris: Welcome back to The Digital Entrepreneur, the show where digital entrepreneurs share their stories and the lessons they’ve learned so that we can all be better in our online pursuits. I am your host, Jerod Morris, the VP of marketing for Rainmaker Digital, and this is episode No. 36.

This episode of The Digital Entrepreneur is brought to you by the Rainmaker Platform. I will tell you more about this complete solution for digital marketing and sales later, but you can check it out and take a free spin for yourself at Rainmaker.FM/Platform.

On this week’s episode, I have a guest who’s been obsessed with quality from a young age. Seriously, he is crazy about quality. If it’s not the best, he won’t have it. He got his start in digital entrepreneurship in 2009 when he founded his own one-man digital marketing shop that has now grown into a small boutique agency of employees and contractors serving dozens of clients around the world.

He specializes in helping small business owners and bloggers who are crazy-passionate about their area of expertise take their business to the next level by creating a strategy for long-term success. He is Seth Spears, and he is a digital entrepreneur.

Seth, welcome to The Digital Entrepreneur. It’s great to have you on the show.

Seth Spears: Hey, Jerod, thanks for having me.

Jerod Morris: Yeah, for sure. This will be really good. It was great seeing you at Digital Commerce Summit. Glad you were able to make it out there.

Seth Spears: Yes, I had a great time.

Jerod Morris: Yeah, it was good. Let’s hope in here, Seth. I’ve always believed that the number one benefit of digital entrepreneurship is freedom. I think that’s what a lot of people feel that it is — the freedom to choose your projects, to chart your course, and ultimately, the freedom to change your life and your family’s life for the better. What is the biggest benefit that you have derived from being a digital entrepreneur?

Why Seth Loves the Balance Freedom Brings to Keep Him Centered and Focused

Seth Spears: I would completely agree with that statement as far as freedom. Especially the time freedom. Some people, they have monetary freedom where they make a lot of money, but they don’t have any time to enjoy it. They’re a slave to their desk, their office, or wherever. They’ve got to be there 24/7. When I think of that, I think of attorneys or doctors.

They’re high paid professionals, but they’re completely reliant upon being there and doing the work, so they don’t have the time to spend with family and friends, travel, and do the things that they enjoy. So I completely agree that having that time freedom and being able to work either in an office or coffee shop or at home or traveling is definitely the biggest benefit to being a digital entrepreneur.

Jerod Morris: Yeah, there’s certainly something admirable about putting in tons of hours and doing the work, but it does kind of lead to the question “what’s it all for?” if you don’t have the time to spend it with the people that you care about most and doing the things that you love doing the most.

Seth Spears: Yeah, exactly. That’s something that I’ve thought about a lot, especially over the past six months or so because I’ve certainly put in a lot of hours over the past few years as far as just work on either my own business or the clients’, et cetera. No stranger to the hard work and putting in lots of hours. But then at the end of the day, it’s, “How much work do you actually want to do?”

You get to a certain point where you’re like, “I can continue to grow this. I can continue to push and make more and make it bigger and better, but then why? Why am I doing this? Why am I pushing so much if I’m not using either the money or the time, et cetera, to spend time with my family, do things that I enjoy, or hang out with friends?”

I think it’s all part of finding a balance there. Both of them have their time and their place because, on the flip side of that, if you just spend all your time just doing what you enjoy, well, then you’re not going to be very motivated. You’re going to be kind of lazy. That’s great and all, but at the end of the day, I think you got to have some balance. That keeps us centered and focused.

Jerod Morris: Yeah, I agree. Balance is definitely the key.

Let’s go back. Take me back before you became a digital entrepreneur. What were you doing, and what was missing that lead you to want to make a change?

How Seth Used Just-In-Time Learning and a Strong Work Ethic to Go From ‘Miserable’ to Pursuing His Life Dreams

Seth Spears: Great question. Back in 2009, I was working for a small college in Nashville, Tennessee. I was the Assistant Director of Admissions, so basically recruiting students, handling paperwork, traveling to college fairs, and all kinds of stuff like that. I was miserable. I hated it.

When I was in college I always had this expectation that I was going to major in business. I was going to graduate. I was going to meet the girl of my dreams, get married, have kids, start my own business, and sail off into the sunset and live happily ever after.

Jerod Morris: You had it all mapped out.

Seth Spears: Yeah, except that didn’t actually happen. It’s kind of happened now, but not exactly in the timing or the way that I was hoping for or expecting it to. I graduated college, bummed around for about a year, did some nonprofit mission work and stuff, waited tables and bartended, then went to work for this college. Got married, started having kids, but I was miserable in the job that I had.

I always had entrepreneurial leanings. I always had a really strong work ethic, worked a lot, and was always doing something on the side. I dabbled in some real estate investing. I tried some little side ventures here and there, but nothing ever seemed to work.

I basically came to a point … we had a new administration at the college, and it came to a head. I said, “You know, it’s either me or them. Since they’re not going anywhere, I’m going to have to go somewhere and make a decision to do something else.”

Now on the side, I had a little side hustle going. I was doing some independent collegiate consulting for homeschool students, helping them to prepare for college. I saw it as an under-served market, so I was doing a little bit of consulting on the side for them. I was homeschooled in high school, so I understood what it took to get in to college — and also, having the administrative side working for a university, I knew what it took to get it.

I began doing that. That was fall of 2009. During that time, as I was leaving, I realized that, “Well, I’ve got to market myself to get myself out there, to get more clients, and to create content and use social media.” Then realized I need a website. “Somebody’s got to be able to find my website, so I’m going to have to learn how to rank that in the search engines, use social media to promote it, and all of that.”

It was a really steep learning curve. I have a marketing degree, but what I came to realize was that that degree was worthless because everything has changed so much. All those theories as far as product price, place, promotion, and all that stuff, it wasn’t really relevant to what I was trying to do as far as market myself and the content that I was producing.

I basically went on a journey to learn as much as I could about digital marketing. I bought some courses, and I read as many blogs, articles, and things as I could, just to really teach myself. During that process, I discovered WordPress, StudioPress and the Genesis Framework, and started teaching myself website design.

As I begin doing that, I really enjoyed it. I like the creative side. There was a really steep learning curve for me, though, trying to figure out what FTP was. I was like, “I have no idea. I don’t understand.” It’s funny to think back now. That wasn’t that long ago. It was 2009 I guess. One thing basically led to another, and I began building out my own website.

Then some family and friends were starting businesses, and they asked for some help because they knew that I was into marketing and technology. I was building a couple here or there, one for myself and some other people, so I did. Then I began to get a couple clients, asking them to help, and I was like, “Huh, this is interesting. I actually really enjoy this. I don’t even like the collegiate consulting site, so why don’t we just kind of pivot and roll it into marketing? That’s what my degree is, and I can kind of do that.”

That’s where Spears Marketing was born. That was in 2010 basically. Then began doing a lot of website design and getting into social media marketing, search engine optimization, and that whole game.

Jerod Morris: It sounds like there was never really a grand plan for Spears Marketing and where you’re at now. It was almost just like one step led to the next, and it all sounds very logical as you explain it. Did it feel like a logical progression as you were going?

The Inherent Opportunities of ‘Flying by the Seat of Your Pants’

Seth Spears: I’ve never thought of it like that. I felt like I was flying by the seat of my pants for the most part.

Jerod Morris: It’s easy to put the pieces together in retrospect, and that’s kind of what I’m wondering. Did it feel like that as you were going through it?

Seth Spears: I don’t think so. It’s hard to take myself back there and feel the feelings as far as what I thought. I just saw an opportunity. I’ve always really enjoyed the study of economics and looking at the market and where opportunity lies. I was definitely in the right place at the right time as far as getting into WordPress and the whole digital marketing side because it was so new. It still probably is, but granted, there’s a lot more noise, traffic, and competition now.

Looking back, it does feel kind of like a natural progression, but at the time, I had to learn what I thought that I needed in order for my own business and then for clients. That’s how things really grew — working with a few clients here or there, just helping them with whatever they needed, teaching myself, and learning and growing from there.

Jerod Morris: Tell me about the milestone, or the moment, in your career as a digital entrepreneur that you’re the most proud of.

The Pride That Comes with Realizing the Difference You’re Making for Clients

Seth Spears: Over the years, I’ve had a lot of success working with several different clients and helping them to improve their traffic and search rankings and their growth, income, and revenue. A year or so ago, I looked back at statistics, the traffic statistics for pretty much every client. And those that actually followed the recommendations that I made — and this would include a website redesign, improved content, some search engine tweaks, and things like that — I had seen, on average, about a 30 percent increase in traffic for the clients.

Jerod Morris: Wow.

Seth Spears: That made me really happy. Just seeing the improvement that the clients would make because that was directly influencing their bottom line. They’re making more money. They’re having more success, and I was really proud of that.

Jerod Morris: That had to be a moment of real pride. Is that something now that for prospective clients that you will tell them? Kind of slip in there like, “Hey, clients who follow our recommendation are seeing 30 percent increases over the ones who do not.”

Seth Spears: I wouldn’t say still because I think the game has changed so much, and there’s so much more competition. Yeah, there were things that we were doing, and still do, that cause you to see a lot of growth. At the same time, I feel like I was on the cutting edge, but everything has caught up so much.

There’s so much noise just in the online space. The competition is a lot greater. Google’s in a state of flux. Social media — just the reach that we used to be able to get on social media — it’s not the same now. Now it’s pay to play. I still think there’s huge opportunity if you’re willing to throw a lot more money at it than before.

Because I always focus on the organic side, but I’m slowly beginning to transition and realize that the paid side is probably where the biggest bang for your buck is right now — just because it’s so much more pay to play.

Jerod Morris: Which, I suppose, was always the inevitable outcome of social media.

Seth Spears: I guess. It’s unfortunate that that’s what it is, but I guess that’s just the nature of markets, you know?

Jerod Morris: Yeah. All right, we’ll take a quick break. When we come back, I’m going to ask Seth about his most humbling moment as a digital entrepreneur.

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Now, back to my interview with Seth Spears.

All right. Seth, tell me about the most humbling moment in your career as a digital entrepreneur thus far and, most importantly, what you learned from it.

Seth’s Advice on Just Because You Can Do Something, Doesn’t Mean That You Should

Seth Spears: Probably when I realized that I took on a client — it was a good sized project — and then I had to fire them about a week into the project, realizing that it wasn’t a good fit, that they were very needy and high maintenance. The amount of handholding that they needed, myself and my team would not be able to provide that.

It made me take a step back and realize that I needed to improve my processes as far as onboarding and do a better job of due diligence to make sure that I was only taking on clients that were a good fit. Just because there was an opportunity to make a lot of money there, if it’s not a good fit, it’s not worth it.

I’d say that was definitely the most humbling and also one of the biggest lessons that I learned in business — just because there’s opportunity, doesn’t mean you need to take it. Just because you can, doesn’t mean you should.

Jerod Morris: That’s a great, great lesson to learn.

In 2014, you learned that because you can provide a service for a client, doesn’t necessarily mean you should, as you explained. You also, I was reading, you got tired and kind of burnt out. You decided to scale back and go to more of a one-on-one marketing approach. Can you talk about that time period, what you learned for it, and how it’s helped you move forward?

Why Being a Self-Learner Has Helped Seth Accomplish What He’s Set Out to Do

Seth Spears: Yeah, so when I got started, it was just me — just freelancing, consulting and strategy, website design, SEO, social media, and all that stuff. Then I began to scale up and bring on a team. I basically had formed a little digital agency from about end of 2011, early 2012, until the beginning of 2014.

Like I said, I took on a couple clients who just weren’t a good fit and just some bad experiences. I had an employee or two that left, and I realized, “You know what? I don’t like the managing the employees. I don’t like offering all these different services.” I was offering so many different services to clients based on whatever they wanted. Then either the on-staff employees that I had would handle that, myself, or I would contract out some of it — just whatever the client wanted.

Then I realized, “Just because I can offer something, doesn’t mean I should offer it. Maybe it’s time to look at what I’m good at, what I really enjoy, and focus on those things.” And that’s what I did. I really narrowed the focus as far as specifically to the consulting and strategy side, just to work with digital entrepreneurs, online business owners. Specifically to help them figure out what they needed and only work with those.

I stopped offering all the other services, like the done-for-you social media and SEO work and some of the website design, although we still do a little of that. But I really narrowed the focus down and only began offering just those services that I thought that I was the best at and enjoyed the most.

Jerod Morris: What does your business look like now? Because you have Spears Marketing where you’re doing client work, and then you also are obviously with Wellness Mama as well, where the blog and lots of digital products there. There’s really two sides to the business right now, right?

Seth Spears: Yeah, so Katie and I have a partnership there as far as she handles all the content, and I handle all the strategy and everything, the technical side of everything. They’re two completely separate businesses. But yeah, that’s strictly a passion play. She loves to help people on the side and tries to help as many people as possible.

That was another one of those accidental businesses that was nothing more than a hobby, that grew, and that I basically use WellnessMama.com as a testing ground for client work. Like, “Hmm, I think this might work. Let’s try this.” Or, “Let’s try this new technology.” Or, “How about we try this with social media, SEO, or whatever.” It just so happened it worked really well.

Again, we were in the right place at the right time for it, but at the same time, there was a lot of work and effort that went in to it. A lot of content created and a lot of strategy. We’ve been strategic with it as well, but it was definitely one of those accidental things and not something that we set out to say, “Hey, let’s create a business there.”

Jerod Morris: But you know it’s funny how often that’ll happen. You have a main business, and then you have maybe a sandbox that you’re kind of ‘playing in.’ You’re trying stuff out, and eventually there’s kind of, “Whoa, there’s an audience here. I’ve created digital products, and there’s a real business here.” I’ve had that happen to me, too. It’s funny how that happens.

The Importance of Focusing on What You’re Good At (and Where There Is Demand)

Seth Spears: Yeah, exactly. It is very funny how that transpires. There are two schools of thought here. Some people say that you should just do what you love and the money’s going to follow, but I disagree with that. I think that, if there’s no demand for what you love, then the money’s not going to follow. You might enjoy it, but you’re going to be broke. Then eventually you’re going to hate it because you can’t support yourself.

I think you should focus on what you’re good at and where there’s demand for, and then you’ll learn to like something. If you’re that good at it and it’s bringing in money, you’ll learn to like it enough to do it. But having a side project that you enjoy and not even trying to use that as a business, or trying to monetize it necessarily, but just dabbling in that sandbox to play and just because it’s a passion project, I think that’s a good thing. It takes you away from the day-to-day and helps the creativity juices to flow.

Jerod Morris: Yeah. Let’s fast forward to now. What is the one word you would use to sum up the status of your business as it stands today? What would that word be?

How to Evolve and Enjoy the Journey of Taking the Next Step That Makes Sense (Even When There’s Pain Points)

Seth Spears: ‘Evolving.’

Jerod Morris: I like it. Where do you want to evolve to?

Seth Spears: I don’t know. I think the journey over the past several years has just been flying by the seat of our pants. It’s never been planned out to say, “I’m here. I want to be here.” There’s been elements as far as short-term goals. “Hey, I want this much traffic, this many subscribers, or maybe even make this much income per month.”

But as far as the long-term, five, 10 years down the road, I think the Internet is constantly changing so much. It’s very hard to set those long-term objectives just because there’s so much flux and volatility, especially when it comes to Google, Facebook, and everything.

Jerod Morris: Well, hey, that’s part of your story — not necessarily knowing where you’re going to go but just taking the next step that makes sense.

Seth Spears: And trying to enjoy the journey as much as possible, which I’m not that good at all the time, but I’m working on it.

Jerod Morris: What is your biggest recurring pain point as a digital entrepreneur? What sometimes doesn’t allow you to enjoy the journey as much as you’d want to?

Seth Spears: Seeing dips in traffic and not understanding why. A couple of years ago, I felt like I had Google figured out. I can rank pretty much any website, you know, “We put out this type of content. We promote it here. We do this and this and this, and it works.”

Now, I feel like their algorithms have gotten so very specific, and it’s not a one size fits all. There’s so many variables that, for different clients, it’s a lot harder just to get content to rank than it used it be. So trying to figure out that whole game, it’s a never-ending process. I’d say, currently, that’d be one of my biggest pain points.

Jerod Morris: Yeah. What element of your work gives you the most satisfaction on a daily basis? Not necessarily the outcome, seeing X, Y, Z success, but what part of the actual work gives you the most satisfaction?

Why Seth Thinks It All Comes Back to the Freedom to Work When You Want

Seth Spears: I think it goes back to our conversation earlier as far as the time freedom. This might not be the answer you’re looking for, but just realizing I can work a whole lot right now, work 60 hours this week, and then next week I can take off and only work 10 hours. Is that the answer you’re looking for, sort of?

Jerod Morris: Yeah, sure. Because to me, that’s the kind of thing that, in the moment, keeps you motivated to work right now. It may not be that you necessarily love researching SEO in this very moment, but because of what it allows you to do later, I think that’s definitely a fair answer to that question.

Seth Spears: Yeah, exactly. I think the other side of it, I like seeing progress made. I like being able to do something and see the outcome from it. If I put in a whole bunch of effort and I spend, say, an hour crafting an email, either for myself or for a client, and then see the outcome of that — see the open rates increase and the click throughs based on that — I really enjoy that side of it as well. Even though I’m not a copywriter per se, but just seeing you put in the effort, you put in the input, and then the output is positive.

Jerod Morris: By the way, I just want to commend you on your use of the phrase ‘crafting an email’ as opposed to just writing an email. It truly is crafting it when you’re trying to write something that’s good that will drive an action that will be enjoyed. It really is crafting. I appreciated that turn of phrase right there.

Seth Spears: Very much so. And that really is an art and a science. It’s funny how trying to get out of your own head and just write I’ve always said I’m a better editor than I am a writer. I’m a good writer, too — or I feel like I am — but it takes me longer to do that. I’d rather take something that someone has already created and tweak it to make it that much better. I feel like my strengths are better there as far as not creating something completely from scratch, but taking bits and pieces from here and here and here, and making something so much better, 10x-ing it or more.

Jerod Morris: Yeah. So let’s open up your toolbox. What is the one technology tool that contributes the most to your success as a digital entrepreneur?

The Not-So-Secret Tools in Seth’s Toolbox

Seth Spears: The one technology tool. There’s so many. Obviously, WordPress is huge because everything’s online, so using that for website build-outs. Google Apps would obviously be another one, and Dropbox. I’d say those would be the three that I couldn’t live without. There’s lots of other ones as well, like smaller ones like Evernote.

Jerod Morris: Is there one kind of off-the-radar one that people might not be familiar with that’s maybe a newer one that you found to be especially useful?

Seth Spears: As far as a general one, not that I can think of right now, but an app that I really like as far as just content creators one of the things that I focus on over the past year or so is website speed and really focusing in on and proving site speed because that’s something that Google really looks at. And images are a big, big issue. Because people upload massive images, and that takes longer to load, especially if you’re on mobile.

There’s an app called ImageOptim. You can download it for Mac and I think PC as well. Basically, you just drag your images into this little app that sits in your dock and it smushes it down. It reduces the size of it without any loss of quality, so it gets rid of all the underlying data that is added to an image when you take a picture. So when you upload that to your site, it’s going to be quite a bit smaller. In turn, it’s going to improve your site speed.

Jerod Morris: Nice. What is the non-technology tool that contributes the most to your success?

Why Seth Loves Unplugging to Enjoy the Great Outdoors

Seth Spears: Taking time away from the computer, from the phone, from being inside, and just getting outdoors. I’m a bit outdoors guy, so I love hunting, camping, and all that fun stuff, skiing. Getting away so you can take a mental break and just get in touch with nature and relax.

Then, also, reading something good from an actual physical book. I think there’s something about holding a physical book in your hands and sitting back and just reading, and not just reading on your phone, on the computer or Kindle, or whatever.

Jerod Morris: Yeah, I agree with that. Earlier I asked you for the one word that you would use to sum up the status of your business as it stands today. You said evolving. When we talk again in a year, what would you want that one word to be?

Why Seth Wants to Evolve into a Place of Consistency

Seth Spears: ‘Consistency.’ Consistency is something that most people struggle with — whether that’s business consistency, personal consistency, your personal life, business life, whatever. I think I’m pretty consistent, but that evolution of things it’s hard to stay really consistent — whether it’s your making X number of dollars per month, you have X number of clients a month, or X number of traffic, whatever.

Trying to make things so that they’re more consistent across all those so that you don’t have the flux of being up or down with clients, revenue, and traffic, et cetera.

Jerod Morris: I have a few rapid fire questions for you to close out. Are you ready for these?

Seth Spears: Yeah, let’s do it.

The One Book Seth Would Insist You Read

Jerod Morris: If you could have every person who will ever work with you or for you read one book — and obviously, they would read it as a physical book — what would it be?

Seth Spears: I’m going to go with Brewing Up a Business by Sam Calagione, the founder of Dogfish Head.

Jerod Morris: Oh nice.

Seth Spears: It’s a phenomenal business book about entrepreneurship, business, and marketing from somebody who’s crazy passionate about what he does. I read this years ago and just really connected with his story, his work ethic, and the way he sees the world and business in general.

Jerod Morris: Also a great brand of beer, too.

Seth Spears: Yes it is.

Seth’s Ideal 30-Minute Skype Call to Discuss His Business

Jerod Morris: Okay, if you could have a 30-minute Skype call to discuss your business with anyone tomorrow, who would it be?

Seth Spears: I’m going to go with Jeff Bezos from Amazon. I think he would have a lot of insights just where things are going and heading digitally just because he has been such a visionary over the years and Amazon has gotten so big and all the other things he’s doing as well. I think having a little call with him would definitely be interesting.

Jerod Morris: What would you ask him? What would be your first question?

Seth Spears: Did you envision where Amazon is now, or was it just a natural progression? That would be one thing.

Jerod Morris: I would love to hear that answer.

Seth Spears: And where do you see things going over the next five years?

Jerod Morris: Very good.

The One Email Newsletter Seth Can’t Do Without

Jerod Morris: What is the one email newsletter that you can’t do without?

Seth Spears: I’ve pretty much unsubscribed from almost every newsletter just because email is such … I get too much. But the one I’m really digging right now is Brian Dean from Backlinko.com. He’s got a really good one. He focuses on SEO and some social media, but I feel like he’s got his finger on the pulse of the search game right now. I really enjoy his. He’s a great writer, too.

Jerod Morris: Brian Dean, Backlinko.com?

Seth Spears: Yup. Backlinko.com.

Jerod Morris: Okay.

The Non-Book Piece of Art That’s Had the Biggest Influence on Seth as a Digital Entrepreneur

Jerod Morris: What non-book piece of art had the biggest influence on you as a digital entrepreneur?

Seth Spears: I am very passionate about quality. I always look for the best. If it’s not incredible quality, craftsmanship, I really don’t care for it. So I’m going to say Saddleback Leather Company. I came across them five or six years ago, and I read something about them. They were just the small little company in Texas that created these amazing leather bags.

Over the years, I’ve purchased some, and the quality’s just amazing. They’ve built up an incredible following. They’re pricey, but their story is fascinating and just their focus on quality and not skimping on quality based on price or whatever — so I would say one of their bags.

Jerod Morris: What productivity hack has had the biggest impact on your ability to get more meaningful work done?

Seth’s Biggest Productivity Hack for Doing Meaningful Work

Seth Spears: I think kind of like I mentioned earlier, just getting outside and disconnecting from technology for a while. Probably over the past month or so, I’ve been somewhat burnt out just because I worked so much over the past several months. The past four weeks or so, I’ve basically kind of taken a little time off and I’ve gotten outside.

I’ve been hunting a lot. I’ve been camping, taking my kids and just hiking and stuff. Just getting away, reconnecting with nature, getting away from technology, and realizing there’s a lot more out there to see and do and not just being in front of a computer all the time. That’s really tough to do as an online entrepreneur.

Jerod Morris: Yeah it is.

How to Get in Touch with Seth

Jerod Morris: And finally, what is the single best way for someone inspired by today’s discussion to get in touch with you?

Seth Spears: Either Twitter, my handle’s @SpearsMarketing, or on my website SpearsMarketing.com/Contact.

Jerod Morris: Excellent. Well, Seth, this has been a great conversation. Appreciate you being on here and lending your insight to us.

Seth Spears: Thanks, Jerod. Great talking to you as well.

Jerod Morris: Yea, take care.

Seth Spears: You too.

Jerod Morris: My thanks to Seth Spears for taking the time to join us on this episode of The Digital Entrepreneur. Also, as always, thank you to Caroline, Will, and Toby for helping to make this episode a reality.

And thank you for joining us. I always appreciate your attention here to The Digital Entrepreneur, and I’d love to hear from you. Shoot me a Tweet @JerodMorris. Let me know your thoughts on this episode, guest ideas that you have, future topics you’d love to see us cover — always love hearing what you think of the show.

All right, thank you, and I will talk to you next week on another brand-new episode of The Digital Entrepreneur.