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The Transcript

Is Your Email Marketing Leaving Money on the Table?

Voiceover: You’re listening to the Digital Entrepreneur, the show for folks who want to discover smarter ways to create and sell profitable digital goods and services. This podcast is a production of Digital Commerce Institute, the place to be for digital entrepreneurs. DCI features an in-depth, ongoing instructional academy plus a live education and networking summit where entrepreneurs from across the globe meet in person. For more information go to Rainmaker.FM/digitalcommerce. That’s Rainmaker.FM/digitalcommerce.

Jerod Morris: Welcome back to the Digital entrepreneur. I’m your host Jerod Morris, the VP of Marketing for Rainmaker Digital. For those of you scoring at home, this is now episode number 21. I’m joined today by a couple of familiar voices. First we have Brian Clark, the Founder and CEO of Rainmaker Digital. Brian, welcome back to the show that you started.

Brian Clark: Do you really think people are scoring at home?

Jerod Morris: No, it’s a callback to an old Sport Center catchphrase. I’ve always wanted to say it.

Brian Clark: I do appreciate the reference, and I did get it.

Jerod Morris: We’ll see how many other people do. Now, a person who definitely did not get that reference. We also have Chris Garrett, the Chief Marketing Technologist at Rainmaker Digital. Chris, I hope this appearance helps cure your podcasting withdrawal symptoms that I’m sure you’re still going through.

Chris Garrett: Yes, that it does. And I can confirm, I did not get that reference.

Jerod Morris: Yes, that was a sport and goal reference.

Brian Clark: Inside baseball.

Jerod Morris: Yeah, I know.

Chris Garrett: I don’t even get inside baseball. I have to have somebody explain that one to me.

Jerod Morris: All righty. We are not going to talk about baseball today on this episode of the Digital Entrepreneur. We’re going to talk about email. We discussed this topic back when we did our five episode series on the elements of the modern marketing website a couple months ago. We’ll have that episode link for you in the show notes. Email actually kicked that series off. The episode was titled, “How Email (Still) Creates the Profit Engine of Your Digital Business.” If you are not yet convinced that you need to be building an email list, go back and listen to that episode and then get started building an email list.

For this episode we’re going to assume that you understand the importance of building an email list, are in fact already doing so, and are at that next-level stage where you’re looking to become more sophisticated with your email marketing. You’re working with autoresponders, you want to get into tagging and segmentation, and perhaps improve what you’re already doing in that area.

That’s our big idea today, which is to stress the importance of thinking in a more sophisticated and strategic way about what you’re doing with email. Also to discuss how we’re building these tools and features into the Rainmaker platform in a way that no one else has really done because of one key huge difference which we will get to here in a bit. First, Brian, I want to start off by asking you, why have tagging and segmentation become such essential elements of an email marketing campaign?

Brian Clark: It’s all about that providing a more personalized experience. When we’re putting together our email sequences everything depends on the action or inaction. There are usually a couple to several variables that are always at play. Isn’t it smarter to speak to someone based on what they actually do, what they show interest in, than some one-size-fits-all autoresponder stream? That worked great for me in 2001 to 2005, but we’re in a very different world now.

Jerod Morris: Yeah, we are. The message that you are delivering to your audience needs to adapt. We’ve talked about this idea of the right message for the right person at the right time, and that’s what this allows you to do. Chris, Brian and I were actually talking the other day about the difference between tagging and segmentation. What is that difference? Can you explain what tagging and segmentation actually are from a more technical standpoint and what the difference is between them?

Why Tagging and Segmentation Are No Longer Nice-to-Have Email Features

Chris Garrett: Segmentation is what Brian has just talked about, talking to the people who are interested in the topic about that topic, and not sending them information that they’re clearly not interested in. You segment them. You put them into groups. So this group is interested in red widgets and this group is interested in blue widgets. You can do that by putting them on two different lists, or you can have one master list and add information about them. Brian is interested in basketball and Jerod is interested in football. It can be one list called “sports,” but that information about what they are interested in could be a tag. It could be a custom variable.

It’s a piece of information about that subscriber or that prospect. Back in the day, with the early sales CRM processes, you would say, “This is a prospect. This is a warm lead. This is a qualified lead.” You would say, “This person has shown interest. This person is ready to be closed.” That’s a piece of information about them. Just like you would tag a blog post to say it’s about science fiction or romance, you would tag a person to say, “This is what we know about them.”

Jerod Morris: It’s so important to be able to do this to have flexibility. I’ll give you an example from a project that I was working on with a certain email provider. I wanted a way to send messages to the people who visited — this was for The Assembly Call — people who watch the show the most. If people had visited that page ten times I would tag them a certain way, but I actually had to create a separate list for those people and send it to a separate list and pay separately for that list, as opposed to it just being a tag for those people, those subscribers all within my list already that I could just email.

Brian Clark: That’s what I have to do now, and I’m not shy, it’s AWeber. Chris, when are we moving me to Rainmaker? It’s so unwieldy when you have to create a new list.

Jerod Morris: Yeah, I hate it.

Brian Clark: It doesn’t make sense. And I think AWeber has some much more expensive advanced features that may include this, I’m not sure. But my opinion is, this is just email in 2016. This isn’t advanced email marketing. This is just email marketing. MailChimp and AWeber and all these people who are vanguards of the industry are saying, “Sure, we’ll sell you that for this much more.” I disagree with that approach, because I think everyone needs to be doing at least basic segmentation and tagging. It just makes much more sense than creating all these separate lists and, of course, being charged for them.

Chris Garrett: You want to be encouraged to do this. The more you know about your subscribers — the more you know about your customers, especially — the better you can provide the service to them that’s not annoying. It changes how you approach the copy as well, because if you’re sending an email saying, “You may have seen this,” or “I don’t know if you saw this what I’ve talked about last week,” it’s awkward, it’s clumsy. It’s a lot better to say, “You were on the webinar on July the 10th and we’re doing it again.” Being able to say, “I know this about you, therefore I know you will be interested.” Or, “We met at a conference in Denver,” instead of, “Did you see me in Denver?” You’re talking to a person instead of the group as a whole. When you’re talking to a person you get through to them better. You can include the things you know about them.

Brian Clark: Looking at it from a conversion standpoint, if I send out an offer email for a promo and someone clicks but doesn’t buy, that is an important piece of information compared to someone who either didn’t open the email or opened the email and didn’t bother to click. The first person is probably seriously thinking about it. They at least went to check it out.

That’s a very different message that I would send to that person compared to someone who doesn’t seem to be interested at all. Maybe they didn’t see it. With that person you can say, “Hey, did you see this email? Because you didn’t open it.” The person who saw it, clicked, and looked — that’s valuable information. What if you gave them some incentive to tell you why they didn’t buy? That’s incredible information in return that you would also get from knowing that.

Chris Garrett: Also, the majority of the people aren’t going to buy — 95% are not going to buy. If you only focus on the 5% who take the action, what about the majority? What about all the others who might be ready later? They might, as you say, have good reasons why they didn’t take action right now. There’s a lot of money and goodwill sat there that you could be just ignoring.

Simple Examples of Smart Marketing Automation Done Right

Jerod Morris: The other thing that’s interesting too, is how much more you can do when your email is fully integrated into the platform. This is what I want to ask you about in regards to Rainmaker, Chris. As I go through and start using some of these features, I’m finding so many more options available for tagging and segmentation and being able to adapt the content based on what people do on the website. If you’re just using a third-party email provider, you can obviously do a lot based on what they click in the email and all of that stuff, but actually having it integrated into the platform gives you a whole world of other information that you can use to tailor the experience that you’re giving them.

Chris Garrett: Yeah. One of the things that I know you and Brian have talked about a lot is the free member library concept or the free course. We’ve really focused on making that as useful and valuable as possible. Because, if you’re sending people off of your site to a third-party training platform or video hosting platform, you’re losing a lot of opportunity to know about what is really engaging to them — what is really exciting for them, or gets them to take action — or what they want to go deeper into. Having just that website and that training platform in one, that’s huge increase in what you know about your customers or your prospects.

If you look at how we use it — we know if somebody has started Brian’s course versus started the funnel course or Chris Lema’s course. We know if they’re a paid person or a free person. We have a free library because we do what we teach. We know to not send people information based on whether they are free or paid.

We don’t want to send them the stuff that you should pay for, but also we don’t send them things that will annoy them. We don’t tell them to buy what they’ve already purchased, which sounds basic, but how many times would you signed up for something where they should know but they still tell you irrelevant things or they still mistake you for being a prospect when you’re already a customer? If you just go around the web and you see all the remarketing ads for stuff that you’ve already purchased, you know what I’m talking about.

Then, as we add to the platform, we want to look at people who haven’t registered. Maybe they haven’t even signed up for your email yet, but we still want to know information about them to use later. Think about if you’ve got a blog and that blog has call to actions to get people to sign up for the email list or sign up for the free membership, then that free membership gets people to pay. If you’re sending people to separate sites or separate tools all along the line, you’re losing those connections. Once somebody has shown that they’re a human being and a return visitor we want to build up information about them. Then you can start segmenting through your content and through your own site experience. You can have on-site call to actions based on the actions they’ve taken and the interest they’ve shown.

You can have blog post series that lead people to have a deeper interest in a topic and then you can give them the opportunity to go deeper into that by registering for a free course — either as an email course or as a learning management system video-based course with downloads. That’s another opportunity for them to express more interest and show more action. Sign up for webinars — you know if they’ve signed up for the webinar, but did they attend the webinar? That’s all information you can build about them, and it’s all through their actions and their interest rather than trying to infer, spy, or use analytics, which is not really great for drilling down to an individual.

How We’re Building RainMail to Integrate All of These Features Under One Roof With the Rainmaker Platform

Brian Clark: Tagging is an email concept, obviously, but it’s also a CRM concept. You’re actually building a database of informed information. You can review that information, but Rainmaker does most of the heavy lifting for you. I think that the really exciting thing that we’re going to be able to move toward that third-party automation solutions can’t is — because you’re essentially controlling the email list and the site in an integrated fashion, that allows you to truly adapt the site — literally change elements of the page based on topical interest, behavior, and identity. To where, if a certain interest is determined…

For example, we sell a lot of different things, but if someone comes in at Copyblogger through the email marketing landing page, that sends them into My Copyblogger along with everyone else. That’s valuable information, because we know that their point of entry was email. Therefore, the follow-up sequence for that person is different from everyone else, even though they all ended up in the same place based on a tag that is placed right there.

Chris Garrett: If you think about the things we sell on StudioPress, if somebody buys the foodie theme versus the real estate theme that’s good information for us to know. They’re actually expressing that they’ve got an interest in industry in a vertical, and that is really useful information.

We’ve got people in our customer base who are writers, we’ve got developers. They have different needs. They have a lot of overlapping interest, but they also have different interests as well. You can service them better the more you know about them and know what they might be interested in. Also, if you give them an opportunity to express interest and they don’t take the opportunity, that’s also information that you can glean as well.

Brian Clark: Let me ask you this, Chris. You and Nick, one of our developers, were geeking out. We’re trying to extract reasonable deadlines from you — like marketers do — without much luck. Tagging is really the smarter way to segment. But you guys were talking about advanced segmentation and some other stuff that we have coming later in the summer for Rainmaker. Tell us a little bit about that.

Chris Garrett: One of the problems with tagging is that a lot of the time a tag will be a “yes” or a “no.” It’s really interesting to say Jerod is interested in basketball, “yes.” But I think it’s more interesting to be able to say Brian started this course on June 22nd and show a different message if somebody started before June the 1st or after June the 1st. Then there’s things like lead scoring. If somebody downloads a white paper, do you give them ten extra points to say that they are really interested versus somebody who’s got a lead score of one? Is that person now a lead score of 20?

What Lead Scoring Is, and Why It Matters?

Brian Clark: Lead scoring — just so we don’t lose anyone here — this is a way of giving a rating or a numerical value, if you will, to a prospect in which case, if they are more highly motivated than someone else, you might send them an offer or a different message than you would send everyone else.

Chris Garrett: Yeah, exactly. Or you would use that to develop correlations between the activity you’re doing and the quality of the prospects and leads that you’re generating. You might want to know: Did the Google Hangout do better than the white paper? Did the webinar serve you better than the email autoresponder sequence? What is generating the best lead for the money and the investment you make?

Brian Clark: Where did they come from? I guess.

Chris Garrett: Yeah, is a search prospect better than a Facebook advertisement prospect? It might not be just down to picking up the phone and calling your best prospects. It might be, “Okay, this is where our investment is going and this is how it’s paying off.” Down to — once they become a customer — did it take them a long time to become a customer? Did it cost you a lot of money to make them into a customer? This is all valuable information that allows you to tune and tweak things. It’s not just about, “Yes, we can show different messages on screen. We can show different email copy.” It’s also where you’re putting your efforts. It’s the 80/20 rule, 20% is going to be 80% of your payoff.

The Difficulty of Using Website, Email Marketing, and Automation Solutions That Aren’t Integrated

Jerod Morris: Chris, how would someone even try and do something like this with a mishmash of a bunch of third-party providers? As we’ve talked about them, that’s with Rainmaker and it being all integrated. That’s what I was hinting at earlier when I said the one huge key difference — it is that integration having everything in one. How would someone even do this at this level of sophistication when they’re putting parts and pieces together?

Chris Garrett: We tried. We tried to piece all these things together. It didn’t work so well. That’s why we built what we built — we built it for us. If you sign up for a Rainmaker trial or if you sign up for the Digital Commerce, you can actually see us using the stuff we’ve started building. Obviously it’s all going to roll out to everybody who’s our customer on Rainmaker.

We couldn’t really do this integrated thing. We were spending a lot of money and time in development to glue all these things together, and we just thought it would actually save us time and effort to build what we needed instead. The multi-device world we live in — take that alone — where you take a lot of actions on your phone and then you go to the website on your desktop, because bigger screen. You’re ready to use your credit card and it forgets everything about you.

That’s what we want to get away from. We want people to sign up for your free course on the phone being able to follow it on their iPad and then download the PDFs on the desktop and it all be the same person, the same experience, or an enhanced experience. We want you to tell us by viewing the video past 30% that you’re interested. We don’t want to glue all these different tools together. It needs to tell your email subscriber, your member record. It needs to tell your on-screen experience. It needs to tell your experience six weeks down the line that you showed an interest. It shouldn’t forget about you. You can, if you’ve got a big team and a lot of effort, get some of that by gluing a lot of things together. But not what we needed and not to the level we want to take it.

Brian Clark: There’s a ton of businesses out there these days who are essentially one person. They do very well. Of course they have virtual staff and freelancers and designers that are part of the eco system, but you need your technology to be your business partner not a liability.

Jerod Morris: Yeah.

Chris Garrett: How many businesses have got the resources or even the time and bandwidth to have a team of people looking after this? Every extra team member you add — even if it’s a freelancer — is taking mind share away from you as a CEO.

Brian Clark: If your automation solution requires you to hire a consultant, you’re doing it wrong.

Jerod Morris: Yes.

Chris Garrett: Outside of this company. I don’t want to do myself out of the job. The funny thing is how many of these tools are sold as being easy, but really they’re consultant-ware. That’s one thing to be really nervous about. If you have to take a great deal of expensive training and then you have to have a lot of resources to manage the thing, and then you’re so tied in because of all that investment that you’re worried that you’ll never be able to go anywhere else, then you’re not doing your job. You’re not marketing or producing products, you’re not doing customer service. You’re dedicating all that resource and that energy to a tool. The tool should serve you, not you it.

Jerod Morris: Chris, did I hear you correctly? You mentioned earlier — we’ve talked a lot about the importance of the logged in experience and what you can do from a marketing automation perspective when people are logged in. The importance of that will never dissipate. But did I hear you that folks will be able to perform some of those marketing automation functions even when people aren’t logged in?

Chris Garrett: Yeah, I think that’s important for us as a step that we need to work towards as much as possible. Like you say, the logged in experience is going to be the ultimate because we know if they hit that Facebook log in button or that Facebook registration button, we’ve got a lot of information about them and then everything they do. Not everybody’s going to log in and not everybody’s ready to log in. A blog creator doesn’t need to be logged in. Reading an article — we want to know that they are really interested in the 3D printing category versus the basketball category without them having to log in. Then, clicking links — you don’t have to necessarily log in to show an interest, because you’ve clicked the link. All of that needs to be, if they logged in, great, if they are not logged in, to still work.

Jerod Morris: I think you and I need to create a site where it’s possible for someone to take a path of either 3D printing or basketball.

Chris Garrett: Nick and I were actually talking about using these tagging and segmentation rules features to do Choose Your Own Adventure. Do you remember those books?

Jerod Morris: Yeah.

Chris Garrett: We’re actually seriously considering making Choose Your Own Adventure using these tools. I think that will be fun.

Jerod Morris: That would be fun.

Chris Garrett: Ten plus points minus five heath. That kind of thing.

Jerod Morris: All right, can we nail you down on dates when all these stuff is going to be done?

Chris Garrett: No, you cannot.

Brian Clark: We do have one date that we’re fairly …

Chris Garrett: Yeah, we really want to get this into your hands as soon as possible, but at the same time we want it to be great. I really hate promising. But in July we definitely want you to be able to tag people and to be able to show or hide based on those tags.

Brian Clark: Tagging really is the next killer app of the killer app. It’s not necessarily new, but most of the solutions out there that offer this, like I mentioned earlier, it’s an upsell. Remember when we tried out Marketo and they finally figured out that we don’t have a sales team and their solution wouldn’t work for us? We paid a lot of money for that. Of course, that was the moment when we decided to build it ourselves.

The integration in Rainmaker is interesting because it’s a total platform. We don’t have to maximize profit on email. Not only do we not upcharge you for tagging, you’ll see that our email prices — despite world-class servers and deliverability — are cheaper than everyone else out there. That’s simply because it’s all part of one solution. You got all these companies that are SaaS companies that are basically a feature. Rainmaker is the exact opposite philosophy of that.

Chris Garrett: A lot of these systems as well, they don’t understand that one company can have multiple brands. But back to the start of Copyblogger when you started Teaching Sells with Tony, Brian, you had Copyblogger and you had Teaching Sells. A lot of these companies don’t understand that concept that you might want to email from Teaching Sells as Teaching Sells even though the company is Copyblogger. With our solution, your subscribers are your subscribers. It doesn’t matter what websites you have, you can brand it from those different sites. You have the advantage of it being one subscriber going across two brands, but you can also email from that brand.

Showrunner can email somebody. StudioPress can email somebody. We could actually charge extra for that, but it would sound silly to me. It sounds like something that would be obvious for you to be able to do. A lot of those system are set up for, as you say, the sales person to lead them from being a prospect to a “yes” or a “no” and then dismissing them and discard them. We’ve got people going back to 2007 that are still loyal customers. Why would we do that?

Jerod Morris: Yeah, it’s all very exciting. Obviously, Brian and I love seeing these new features and getting to play with them, and we love the ability to share them with you as well. We’d love for you all to go to Rainmakerplatform.com and take a test drive. What was the Rainmaker email service is now RainMail. It is fully integrated in the platform. You can take a free trial of the platform if you go to Rainmakerplatform.com. We’ve also added a monthly billing option now that you can take advantage of. Get in there, test it out, try it out. We got Chris to go about as far as he will go in terms of a promise by letting you know that there will be some new features in July.

Really, there are going to be new features rolled out in July and August and September, because we’re constantly updating the platform with new features and with new updates to be able to do all of the things that we talked about in this episode today. Make sure that you go to Rainmakerplatform.com, get your free trial started, and see how this can take your marketing and your business to the next level. Because the features are great and they will be able to do that. Chris, thank you for your insight. It’s always appreciated.

Chris Garrett: I had so much fun. I don’t want to overpromise, but I’m sure it’s fine.

Jerod Morris: Brian, thank you as well. Always great to have you back on the show.

Brian Clark: I’m pretty sure he hasn’t overpromised.

Chris Garrett: You’ll make sure of it.

Jerod Morris: All right, everybody. We will talk to you next week on another brand-new episode of the Digital Entrepreneur.

The Transcript

3 Simple Hacks for Better Copy and More Conversions in Less Time

Voiceover: You’re listening to The Digital Entrepreneur, the show for folks who want to discover smarter ways to create and sell profitable digital goods and services. This podcast is a production of Digital Commerce Institute, the place to be for digital entrepreneurs. DCI features an in-depth, ongoing instructional academy, plus a live education and networking summit where entrepreneurs from across the globe meet in person. For more information, go to Rainmaker.FM/digitalcommerce. That’s Rainmaker.FM/digitalcommerce.

Jerod Morris: Welcome back to The Digital Entrepreneur, I am your host Jerod Morris, the VP of Marketing for Rainmaker Digital. This is episode number 20 of The Digital Entrepreneur. Today I am joined by Joanna Wiebe, the conversion copywriter for Copy Hackers, where they promise to help you write more persuasive, believable, and usable copy sans pixie dust, so you can boost your website e-mail conversion rates. I’ve had the good pleasure of working with Joanna, so we can certainly vouch for their work. They do a great job.

Something else that I learned recently about Joanna — I actually learned this earlier today — is that she likes making up new words, like indeedly for instance, and using them casually in conversation. I too share in this wonderific pastime, which may be why she and I get along so well. Joanna, welcome to The Digital Entrepreneur, it is great to have you here with us.

Joanna Wiebe: It’s wonderific to be here.

Jerod Morris: Yes, indeedly.

Joanna Wiebe: Indeedly.

Jerod Morris: Joanna’s appearance today continues our series here on The Digital Entrepreneur, where we’ve been talking with some of our esteemed speakers who will be at Digital Commerce Summit, which is coming up this October. Joanna’s going to be a featured speaker, and her session is going to be titled, “How to Make Good Copy Great When Selling Digital.” In this session, she’s going to be discussing real-life examples from actual projects that Copy Hackers has been working on with companies like Buffer, Wistia, and our very own Rainmaker Platform.

On today’s episode, we’re going to explore a few of those projects, some of those ideas here today. But make sure that you come to Denver so that you can hear Joanna and all of our other terrific speakers live. Early bird tickets are still available, so you’re definitely not too late. Joanna’s going to be there. I will be speaking. And, of course, members of the Rainmaker Digital team like Brian Clark and Sonia Simone will be speaking as well, along with a host of our friends from around the digital entrepreneurship space, including Rand Fishkin, Jeff Walker, Tara Gentile, Joanna Penn, Chris Lema, and many, many more.

As we say right there on the website — in the kind of conversion copy that we hope would make Joanna proud — this is the conference and networking event where you will discover smarter ways to create and sell profitable digital products and services. So don’t miss it. For more information, go to Rainmaker.FM/summit. That’s Rainmaker.FM/summit. Again, early bird tickets are still available for now.

Joanna, let’s dive in here, and I would like to kick this off with an admission that I need to make to you.

Joanna Wiebe: Uh-oh.

Jerod Morris: No, it’s okay, and it has nothing to do with the admission that we just talked about before we went …

Joanna Wiebe: Let’s not talk about that.

Jerod Morris: No, you will not. You spoke at the first Authority conference, which was now more than two years from the day that we’re recording this.

Joanna Wiebe: Right.

Jerod Morris: In your presentation at Authority, you spoke about improving our call to action buttons, and you discussed the two elements that prevent people from clicking on buttons, that is friction and fear. To this day, that is one of the lessons from that conference that has stuck with me. Every time I have a call to action button I’m always thinking, “Okay, how do I reduce friction and/or fear to make this as easy to click on for as many people as possible?”

I’m sure the alliteration had something to do with it. You also talked a lot about the lizard brain and engaging the lizard brain. I think just because this little easy framework — friction and fear — it works. So thank you for that lesson. It’s another reason why going to conferences is such a great thing to do. In addition to the networking, you can pick up these little nuggets that really carry through. Maybe everybody will have different ones, but I’m very appreciative of that one.

Joanna Wiebe: Oh, that’s cool. I’m glad you remember that. That’s awesome to hear. That was a really fun conference.

Jerod Morris: Yeah, it was, and this one will be good too. To start, just give us a little background, if you would.

Joanna Wiebe: Sure.

Jerod Morris: Can you explain a little bit more about what you and the Copy Hackers team does?

Joanna Wiebe: Yeah, absolutely. We get to work with some pretty cool companies — present company included — where we optimize copy, essentially, or we aim to, at least. Sometimes it works, other times it doesn’t. That’s the nature, and that’s why we test. We help organizations either write better copy, or copy that’s worth testing and measuring, or we teach them how to do it. Our blog teaches you how to do it. Our courses teach you how to do it. And if you really want to see how we work and to have us go in and help you hands-on, then we sometimes accept clients. Only the coolest clients, obviously. Just kidding. No, we’re really lucky to work with very cool people that we love, so that’s wicked.

That’s what we do, and the biggest thing that we focus on — outside of being really dedicated to copywriting and messaging — is testing. To be sure that we at least know if something’s working or not. Then we can hopefully have a good hypothesis so we know why it didn’t work or why it did work, so we’re not just constantly guessing and then guessing at something else and then something else. Yeah, that’s what we do.

Jerod Morris: Yeah, that’s the thing that’s been so clear in working with you guys, is the culture of testing that you have and the commitment to testing. Do you find with individuals that you work with, with companies that you end up working with, that the people aren’t testing enough or that there isn’t enough of a commitment to it?

Joanna Wiebe: Yeah. I think it’s a scary thing for a lot of people. It depends where you’re at when you’ve heard of it, but testing feels like … If you’ve just heard of it, it sounds exciting. And then you go and you look into it, and you’re like, “Oh man, I need so much traffic to test a page. And then I need to have a big enough change in the conversion rate to close a test. Wow, I need so much, it’s just going to be too hard.” But you try doing one test, you don’t get any conclusive results, and you just throw your hands up and say, “Testing doesn’t work for me.”

Then there’s the other end where it’s like, “Okay, we don’t test, we only engage in marketing automation, behavioral automation, behavioral marketing, and personalization as a subset of that. So if we A/B test, it’s within this really complex system of marketing automation, essentially.” Those are the bigger businesses that look at A/B testing as trying to find a single solution for a whole bunch of people, which we all know isn’t possible in most cases — to find a single solution or way to message something that works for everybody visiting that page or reading that e-mail.

At the other end of the spectrum, people discount it as trying to do too much with too little, and at the first side of it, the newer people coming into testing, it just feels like you need too much traffic to make it work. Naturally people shy away from it, and I certainly don’t blame them for it. When you get into testing there’s a lot to consider. Where the sources of traffic are, should you be including mobile traffic in your test? If not, should you be doing a separate test just for mobile traffic? There’s so much to think about that I think it can be a bit off-putting for people.

When it comes down to it though, A/B testing is really just, “Here’s the page that we’re currently working with. Here’s what we think we might want to replace that page with because we feel — based on a lot of different data points — that this is the stronger message to go with, but we don’t know. So we’re going to A/B test it one page versus the other.” That’s really, at its core, all it really has to be about. But it’s easy to over-complicate that.

Simple A/B Test Anyone Can Use to Gain Valuable Insight Into Audience Behavior

Jerod Morris: For someone who’s listening to this, maybe they’ve thought about testing but they haven’t done it yet, or maybe they have but it’s been kind of complicated and it feels real convoluted for them. Do you have any suggestions for a simple test folks can go out the door with? Maybe dip their toes in the water? Maybe it’s changing just a headline on the homepage or changing a button. Is there a universal first step people can take to start wading into the testing waters if they haven’t yet?

Joanna Wiebe: Yeah, and it’s basically those two things you just talked about, actually. There’s two ways that I recommend if you haven’t done a test before. The first one is to do an A/B test on your highest traffic page, generally. Generally on your highest traffic page, where that new variation you come up with has a new headline and a new button. Not one or the other, but both changed on variation B. That’s because that button is the real site of conversion. It’s where the measuring happens, on the button.

If you only change the headline but the button isn’t improved, then it complicates things a little bit, or it means you’re going to have to really swing for the fences with that headline, or be dramatically different. I recommend if you’re just starting out do a headline plus button test where that becomes your new variation. Another really easy way to start testing is to test the placement of that button or call to action. If you currently have it in your homepage hero section — where basically every digital business on the planet has a button, in that hero space — try moving it.

Now, obviously, any CRO person will absolutely say, “Well, you have to have a reason why.” We can get into that at some other point, but if we’re just talking about, “Here, test it,” just to get into testing, just to dip your toes in the water, then just test removing that from the hero and moving it further down the page. See what happens. Or test it as a sticky button that follows you as you go. Buttons are the absolute easiest test to start with.

Jerod Morris: But don’t move it so much that there’s increased friction.

The Surprising Button Placement That Actually Worked Wonders for One Company

Joanna Wiebe: The question when we’re like, “Okay, where does a button go?” is at what point is our prospect — our one reader, the one we’re actually trying to convert — at what point are they ready to move forward? You put a button in front of people, they will click it. People like to click the button. That’s the lizard brain, right? “Ooh, I see it, I just – Ta-da! I click it! I didn’t even really look at the things that I need to look at yet.”

We actually did a test on Sweatblock.com, which is an e-commerce site. It’s a little bit different. But we tested a variation of the homepage, kind of a one-pager. Our variation B moved the button way down. The control had the button in the hero section. Variation B opened with a problem agitation solution opening, which is kind of odd on homepages.

You usually just lead with the solution on a homepage and then you might try to back up and go into problem agitation solution as a framework. But we were like, “Nope, we’re not going to lead with the solution. We’re not going to put that button in the hero section. We’re going to lead with the problem. No button. We’re going to agitate the problem, still no button. We’re going to talk about the solution, and only when we’ve said enough about the solution will we put the button on the page.”

I actually just wrote about this on the site. We saw 45% more paid conversion when we did that. More products purchased — not just clicks, but products purchased — when we moved that button down and made people feel something first. The question is, where do you need to put the button? It obviously depends on where your prospect is at, but I would say be sure to be confident in your ability to move people to click, but don’t let them click whenever they feel like clicking. That’s part of having that button test.

Jerod Morris: Wow. That’s great stuff, right there.

Joanna Wiebe: It was fun.

Jerod Morris: Yeah, I bet it was. As I mentioned before, your session title is going to be “How to Make Good Copy Great When Selling Digital.” I want to talk a little bit about what that means, making good copy great. But not just for any reason, for any type of copywriting, but specifically when it comes to selling digital goods. Are there specific elements — and I think you just hinted at some right there — but are there specific elements to writing great copy for selling digital goods that may be different from other types of copywriting?

Why Copywriting Fundamentals like the Rule of 1 Still Work

Joanna Wiebe: I have found that selling digital goods has more to do with traditional direct response copywriting than not. Using the old tried-and-true rules that we read about from Shorts and Caples and all those awesome dudes — those still work. Those still completely and totally work. It’s when we pretend that the rules have changed that we harm our conversion rates.

There’s this sense that people buying online or people reading online are these completely different thinking beings that don’t follow any of the old rules and can’t be persuaded the old ways so we’re going to just throw stuff at them. They like to look around so let them look around. But we haven’t found that that’s been anywhere near as successful as controlling the flow of information.

That comes out in different ways. Sometimes it will mean we take a long-form sales approach and we put it into a “palatable” form on the page so it doesn’t look like a long-form sales page. It still acts like those old sales letters, it just doesn’t look like a letter. When it comes down to it, it’s really about those formulas and frameworks and just listening to your prospect and repeating what you heard on the page. That goes a long way. You think back to Great Leads and books like that, where they talk about basically what I’ve summed up. I don’t even know if it was from the book, I read it so long ago.

The rule of one, where you’ve got one reader, one offer, one big idea, and one promise. If you still follow those when selling on a landing page — it’s hard to do that on a homepage because you generally don’t have one reader, but that’s a big discussion unto itself — if you follow those parts and organize your page with that in mind, you can still see great conversion lift. We did something similar with Buffer, which I’ll be talking about at the summit so I don’t want to talk too much about it. Come to the summit if you want to hear the story.

We followed some of that like, “Okay, what do we need to say to the prospect to move them from the stage of awareness they’re at to the stage of awareness we need them to be at on the page in order to move forward to the point of being a paying customer for Buffer? For their business plan?” We did some cool stuff, we saw very cool lift, and that’s all I’m going to say about it because we’re talking about it at the summit.

What the “Stages of Awareness” Are and Why They Matter

Jerod Morris: You mentioned the stage of awareness. How do you know what stage of awareness folks are at on different pages and in different parts of the process?

Joanna Wiebe: Yeah, totally. Generally a good thing is to look at where they were before, and that should indicate in many cases — maybe not all cases, but we’re looking for as much solid info as we can use. Sometimes it’s imperfect, but oftentimes it’s better than nothing. We look at where they were first. That could mean, “What keyword phrase did they use? Or where were they? Was it a Facebook ad that brought them to us? Are they already on our list or are they not on our list? Are they a returning visitor or are they not a returning visitor?”

Those sorts of things can help us say, “Okay, if they searched a branded keyword phrase like ‘Buffer for business,’ or ‘Buffer for business pricing,’ chances are good they’re in product to most aware.” Those are the two places we’d want to put them, so where do we then kick off the page, that landing page for them? Well, we’ll want to mention the product if they’re in product aware. We might also mention it if they’re in most aware, although what the page looks like will probably be different for those two.

A most aware person — it always depends, but a most aware visitor landing on a landing page meant for most aware visitors is probably going to see a shorter page that does more of the things that we see in Cialdini’s Influence. All of those sorts of persuasion techniques that are great for the lowest hanging fruit, like a lot of social proof, urgency — maybe scarcity, if you’ve got it. Those sorts of things that we hear about as persuasive but that might not work as well for somebody who’s solution aware. But for product aware or most aware they could work much better.

Now, product aware — we might find ourselves putting a lot more on the page to get them to the place where they’re ready by the end of the page to pay. I don’t know, is that clear? I feel like I could talk for an eternity about stages of awareness.

Jerod Morris: No, it is. I think it’s important. It’s funny, because I think we got into this on the call that we had earlier today too. You can have this great piece of copy and it feels really well written and it feels good, but you can’t really tell how successful or good a piece of copy is outside of the context. You’ve got to understand when the person who is the target of this copy, the audience, when are they getting it? What do they know? What have they done already? Where are we trying to get them to go?

I think you don’t want to over-complicate it, because I think the fundamentals of copy are pretty simple. But you also don’t want to underestimate the importance of really understanding the context and putting that copy into the right context for the audience member so that they can actually take the next step that you want them to take.

Joanna Wiebe: Yeah, exactly. This is something that any UX person would absolutely agree with, that context is huge. Even as you’re talking, I’m thinking of how these disciplines all come together today and how it’s helping us all, I think, to produce better materials that are — all of these same principles keep coming up. Like you say, where’s the context? Where are they actually at in experiencing our brand or our product?

If you don’t think about that — this is why targeted landing pages are so important. They’re so easy to create today, as well, that it’s shocking when people don’t. If you write and you send everybody to one or two landing pages that are somewhat generic, they’re just never going to work as well. Or you send e-mails that aren’t specific to what a person’s really going through, they’re just not going to work as well. We all know that.

But sadly — and I know why it is, I go through this for business too — it’s like, “Okay, well I have to prioritize what I’m going to do,” and doing something else generally looks better than sitting there and saying, “Okay, well we have to write six different drip campaigns for six different triggers. It’s going to be a 10-week job to get to the point, and we’re going to have one person on it full time.” You’re like, “Holy crap, well what if they don’t work?” Yeah, it’s true. If you don’t know the context or you don’t know where the prospect is at when they’re looking at the page, none of us should be terribly surprised when they don’t convert as well.

The Difference Between What You Care About and What Your Prospect Cares About

Jerod Morris: Do you think that that’s one of the biggest mistakes that you see individuals and companies make when it comes to their copy? What might be some other ones?

Joanna Wiebe: Yeah, it’s a biggie. It’s not knowing the reader you’re talking to so you put down on the page what you think. I hear this a lot, even in our comments on our blog. I’m sure you’ve seen the same for Copyblogger when you’re talking about copy. We had a bunch of comments recently on one of our posts where we asked people to comment on what they would differently with the copy. One thing that kept coming out was, “I would need to see this,” or, “I wonder about this.” The person is thinking that because they care about it, the prospect cares about it.

Obviously as we’re talking about it, everybody listening is like, “Well, of course not.” But how often do we actually sit there and do that? Write a page where we’re like, “Oh, okay, well let me imagine what you want to know in order to move from where you are to where we want you to be. I think you might care about this, so I’m going to make this the headline.” That’s, I think, the biggest problem, and it happens again and again. Imagining that you could possibly know what your prospect wants, or that your prospects wants the same things you want in the order you want them. For me, that’s an ongoing, continual problem.

Jerod Morris: How do you get around that? To start, you have to have some kind of hypothesis. Is it then just refining based on data and what you see? How do you approach that?

Joanna Wiebe: Start with lots of data. I know that that can be problematic for people who say, “Okay, that’s our business before. Data reflects the business as it’s been and the users we’ve had, not who we want.” If you let that be your reason not to use research or data, then I don’t know. I’m sure other people will know how to help you — hire somebody who does. I don’t know. What I know is that if we look at the data — like the analytics, like click-tracking on the site — if we ask questions about the landing page that identifies who you are …

Help me understand. Put a Hotjar poll on the page you want to optimize and ask questions, or a question, to help you figure out where that prospect is at so you can write for them. Then put click-tracking on there to see where they’re not paying attention. Then consult your actual survey responses that you might have that are from a larger survey that you’ve done, where you can split your data up. Do those sorts of things and you’ll be more likely to write a page.

But that’s how you find what you ought to write about. We all know it’s not sitting there, staring at the page, thinking, “Hmm, what do I care about? To optimize this page, what do I want to know differently? What’s not on here that I need to see?” We all know that’s not the way to do it. Usertesting.com — you can send people on and actually pinpoint. I know it doesn’t get that granular, but you can get down to marketing managers and have only marketing managers — let’s say if you wanted to sell a product to marketing managers — have marketing managers on usertesting.com spend 20 minutes. Get 5 of them to spend 20 minutes on your page answering questions, and that alone will illuminate some opportunities for you and some of the things that your prospect might actually care about.

How to Listen in a Way That Actually Leads to Meaningful Results

Jerod Morris: Yeah. As we were working with you, that was one of the things that you guys did early on and wanted to even do more, was talk to actual customers.

Joanna Wiebe: Yes.

Jerod Morris: How important is that?

Joanna Wiebe: It’s everything.

Jerod Morris: Yeah?

Joanna Wiebe: For me, it’s everything. Interviews alone. There’s all sort of stuff that you can go out and do. We talk about this all over the place. I could make a list, and probably just will. Interviews are hands-down — they’re the thing you want to do least, and they’re always the most revealing if you can get somebody to sit there and talk with you on the phone or in person for an hour, and listen like a crazy person. Just listen the whole time and then transcribe what you’ve heard. Yeah, for me — and I know others will say they don’t do it this way and it works for them to do it their way. Cool. All I can speak about is for me. And for me, time and again, I get the best results when I just shut up and listen and then repeat what I heard.

Jerod Morris: I think that’s true for most folks. It’s so important, and it is underrated.

Joanna Wiebe: Yeah.

Jerod Morris: It’s interesting. What would be your biggest general piece of copywriting advice for folks? I feel like what you just mentioned, listen — the irony of that being the biggest skill that you can have as a copywriter, someone who is producing content, is to actually listen … Maybe that is the best piece of advice. But what is your best general piece of advice for folks to take their copywriting to the next step, to get a little bit better today the next time they write some copy than they were before they listened to this episode?

The Oft-Overlooked Importance of Frameworks and Formulas

Joanna Wiebe: Yeah, I would say listening, doing that research, that’s huge. In one hand: research. In the other hand: frameworks and formulas. I took a long time to come around to the idea of not basically starting from scratch, or of letting somebody else tell me how to frame the page or how to organize a headline. I think a lot of us as copywriters — you still identify heavily with the writer side of that, which is nice and great. But I recommend you have something else you’re writing on the side as a creative project and then make copywriting about copy writing. That means take frameworks and formulas and use those.

This is the hardest thing for people to get their head around. Even when they start listening, they’re like, “Oh, cool. I got all these survey responses. There were these long answers, and look at this sticky copy in there, awesome!” They go and start using it on the page, but they use it without any formulas, without any frameworks, without any way to say this is the right way to organize it. And that’s a problem as well. Don’t try to dream it up from scratch in any way, shape, or form. Listen, and then take what you have heard, and use frameworks like PAS, which I mentioned already and which happens to be my favorite for organizing any message or writing anything. PAS comes through for me every single time.

Jerod Morris: Which is problem, agitate, solve?

Joanna Wiebe: Yes, exactly. Sorry. Headline formulas, crosshead formulas, and button formulas. Just use them. I know it feels like, “Ugh, it’s not as fun,” but you know what’s super fun about it? You get to see cool results. For me as a copywriter, that’s where the real fun is, when a client’s like, “Holy crap, you actually brought in twice the number of paid conversions, that’s amazing.” That’s going to feel better than saying, “Oh, those are my words on the page, organized as I think they ought to be.”

Those are the two things. Research in one hand, frameworks and formulas in the other. Put your hands together.

Jerod Morris: Yes, and it simplifies it. Maybe it makes it less art in your own mind, but it simplifies it and you can be more efficient and get better results.

Joanna Wiebe: Yeah, absolutely.

Jerod Morris: It all makes sense.

Joanna Wiebe: I find that, at least.

Jerod Morris: Yes. Excellent. Joanna, this was great. I can’t wait to hear your presentation at Digital Commerce Summit and see what great nugget you say that I’m still thinking about and talking about on podcasts two or three years later.

Joanna Wiebe: Sweet, and I can’t wait to reveal your giant secret.

Jerod Morris: Cut. Yes, it’ll be great. We hope that you will join us at Digital Commerce Summit. Go to Rainmaker.FM/summit. The dates are October 13th through the 14th. We will be in beautiful Denver, Colorado. As I said, on the date that this episode goes live, early bird tickets are still going to be available. I don’t know how much longer they will be, but they are still right now, so go to Rainmaker.FM/summit. Get your ticket and join us in Denver. We can’t wait to see you. Joanna, I will see you there.

Joanna Wiebe: Yeah, thanks a ton, Jerod.

Jerod Morris: Absolutely. We will see you all there and on next week’s brand new episode of The Digital Entrepreneur. Have a great week.

The Transcript

Practical Advice on Turning the Challenges of Building Membership Communities Into Opportunities

Voiceover: You are listening to The Digital Entrepreneur, the show for folks who want to discover smarter ways to create and sell profitable digital goods and services. This podcast is a production of Digital Commerce Institute, the place to be for digital entrepreneurs.

DCI features an in-depth, ongoing instructional academy, plus a live education and networking summit where entrepreneurs from across the globe meet in person. For more information, go to Rainmaker.FM/DigitalCommerce.

Jerod Morris: Welcome back to The Digital Entrepreneur. This is episode No. 19 of The Digital Entrepreneur. I am your host, Jerod Morris, the VP of marketing for Rainmaker Digital. Today, I am joined by a colleague of mine here at Rainmaker Digital, Pamela Wilson, our esteemed executive vice president of educational content.

There are a couple of reasons why I asked Pamela to join us this week and why I’m so excited that she said yes. Here are those reasons. One is that Pamela’s leading our Authority educational content at Rainmaker Digital, and she has spearheaded some initiatives to grow it and make it better. I have some questions I want to ask her about those initiatives.

Number two, Pamela’s going to be a featured speaker at Digital Commerce Summit, which is coming up this October in Denver, Colorado. Her session will be titled How to Cultivate a Profitable, Interactive Member Site.

In addition to what she’s been doing with Authority, I want to get some of Pamela’s general ideas on what it takes to build a membership site that provides value and drives profits because I know that many of you are working toward that goal right now.

By the way, if you don’t have your ticket yet to Digital Commerce Summit, I do hope that you’ll consider joining us in the Rockies this fall. Early bird tickets are still available, so you’re definitely not too late. Don’t worry about that. You’re not too late. You can still get a great price on a ticket.

Pamela’s going to be speaking, as I said. I will be speaking there, and of course, Brian Clark and Sonia Simone will be speaking as well. They’ve been guests on the last two episodes of The Digital Entrepreneur, along with a host of our friends from around the digital entrepreneurship space, including Rand Fishkin, Jeff Walker, Tara Gentile, Joanna Penn, Chris Lema, and many, many, many more.

This is the conference and networking event where you will discover smarter ways to create and sell profitable digital products and services, so don’t miss it. For more information, go to Rainmaker.FM/Summit. That is Rainmaker.FM/Summit.

With that, I would like to welcome Pamela Wilson to the show. Pamela, thank you again for carving out the time to join us on this week’s episode.

Pamela Wilson: I am so happy to be here, and I love this topic. It’s a fun thing to talk about.

Jerod Morris: It’s a good one, and like I said, you have a lot of experience to talk about this, which is why I’m so excited to have you here as the person to share some experience and share some knowledge with the audience.

Let’s start there. You have really extensive experience in online education, dating back to well before you joined the Rainmaker Digital team. Can you give us just a brief overview of what you were doing prior to joining Rainmaker, which was then at the time Copyblogger, and how that informed the work that you’re doing now?

How Pamela Eventually Turned a Childhood Dream into Reality Thanks to the Internet

Pamela Wilson: Right, so I’m sitting over here trying really hard not to laugh at that introduction because I guess I have extensive experience, but I want to share this with people. This might be something they can relate to a little bit more. I actually always wanted to be a teacher. When I was growing up, I wanted to be a teacher. My grandmother had been a teacher. And I was in FTA in high school, which is Future Teachers of America, so this was my dream.

Jerod Morris: That is not a surprising revelation at all.

Pamela Wilson: Okay, so that’s not surprising, but the interesting thing is, my mother actually discouraged me from becoming a teacher.

Jerod Morris: Really?

Pamela Wilson: Well, she saw that I had always been creative growing up, and she really encouraged me to go into a creative career, which I did. That was my entire career. I worked as a designer and a marketing consultant for decades, really.

After doing that for decades, I started to get antsy. I wanted to do something else, and I started looking into building an online platform and teaching online. I ended up moving into that, so I guess I showed my mom, like, “I showed you, Mom.” I eventually ended up doing the thing that I had dreamed of.

Jerod Morris: You know what’s so interesting about that is you find that a lot when you look around, and you look at successful people. Maybe they’ve been successful in business or something in digital entrepreneurship, but so many people have brought a passion from their childhood and found a way to weave it in there.

It’s like you have found a way to combine your creativity and your business acumen with your ability to teach, which is great. I grew up as a huge IU basketball fan, and now I’ve found a way, with the skills that I’ve learned building membership communities and a podcast, to bring that passion back into it. It’s kind of funny how those things will naturally just start come back. It’s very interesting.

Pamela Wilson: Honestly, I think that’s one of the most beautiful things that the Internet offers us. We really can explore those passions in a place that allows it, and we can find other people that have the same passions. It’s a great way to connect with people who have those same geeky interests that we do. You get to draw from all of humanity. Anyone who is connected to the Internet can find you, so it’s pretty amazing.

I ended up looking into how to do this, and right around the time that I was looking for how to build this online platform, I found Copyblogger. That was like 2009, so it’s not like Copyblogger had been hiding or anything. But I just happened to stumble on Copyblogger at the moment when I needed it.

Just a couple of weeks after I found the site, they were re-opening Teaching Sells, which was the seminal course on how to build online courses. I signed up for that, and so my online teaching story is very much interwoven with Copyblogger’s story and how Copyblogger teaches things.

I learned how to create online courses by taking that course, and then built my Big Brand System site, built a course there to teach basically what I had learned to do in my career, but boiling it down so that people who didn’t have a design background or didn’t have marketing experience could understand it and apply it to their own businesses.

Once I did that, I created all of these smaller products, so I created a product called The Ebook Evolution, which helps people to create ebooks by themselves, PDF e-books mostly, Site Setup Kit, which was to help people who had no web developer background build a website that they could control themselves, and then a product called Visual Buzz 101, which was basically to help non-designers create great-looking images for their web presence.

Jerod Morris: What’s interesting about that, you had this formal training with the Teaching Sells, of developing courses, and then you got into it and went out and did it on your own. I imagine from the experience of Teaching Sells, you had a pretty good roadmap to follow. You knew what to expect, but doing it for the first time with Big Brand System and doing it on your own, what were some of the things that surprised you about the experience?

What Pamela’s First Experience Creating Her Own Membership Community Was Like (and How She Prepared for It)

Pamela Wilson: Honestly, that’s one of the coolest things about being part of this team now is that so much of our effort is focused on making the Rainmaker Platform awesome. The biggest surprise to me was how difficult at that time–this is back in 2010–how difficult it was to put together the technical pieces that I had to put together to create the membership site. I felt like I was scaling Mount Everest. It was seriously way beyond my technical pay grade to put that together, so that was surprising to me.

The course part, I felt like the education in Teaching Sells really helped to guide me so that I could put together education that was useful, effective, and all of that, so that part was great. Then the technical piece was just a nightmare, so it’s very cool to be on the other side of that now and helping to contribute, even in a small way, to this product that just makes all of those things so much easier.

I loved it, though. That whole experience of building a community around something that you’re teaching, I loved that.

Jerod Morris: Speaking of that, let’s talk a little bit about Authority. As a I mentioned earlier, you’ve been leading our Authority membership program. I’ve been a really interested observer, watching you systematically, methodically make improvements over there.

Can you provide an overview of where Authority was when you got involved with it and what you’ve tried to do to take what was working and make it even better?

How Pamela Has Approached the Challenges of Running a Mature Membership Community Like Authority

Pamela Wilson: Right. Sonia and I worked together to come up with this plan. We wanted to inject new energy into this program. It was already a solid program, but it had been around for a while. This is one of the interesting things. A membership site at the very beginning of its life cycle and then after it’s been around for a while, it has a different set of challenges.

Some of it is just making the information easy to consume and making it easier for people to get their way through all the information. After it’s been around for a while, you have a lot of information, and people’s first reaction is, they get in there, and they’re like, “Ah, I don’t know where to start.”

It was that, but it was also encouraging people to consume the information. I was looking for ways that we could involve the community more, and I’ll talk about how we did that. Then I was also looking for ways to just simplify the process, the production process on our end, and make it a little bit more predictable. That’s how I came to this idea that I’m going to be talking about at the summit, which is finding this sweet spot in-between your efforts and your profits.

Jerod Morris: Yeah. You mentioned some of these challenges of an older membership site that’s been around a while. It doesn’t have that new car smell and feel. It’s like anything else. You can look at that, and there are challenges there, but you can also flip it around. You can say, “Okay, but what does this make possible?”

Pamela Wilson: Exactly.

Jerod Morris: There are some challenges, but how did you then overcome those challenges, building upon what was already there?

Pamela Wilson: Right. One of the things was to just encourage community. These are all such small things, but one thing was, in our weekly webinar–we have a webinar, a live webinar, every single Friday–and one thing that I’m doing on a lot of those webinars is I incorporate shout-outs to people who have posted in the forum and might have a question. That just helps people to know what’s going on in their community and maybe drives them into the forum to participate a little bit more. That was one thing.

Another thing is just to develop content that highlights our members, what they’re doing, and what their challenges are because so many people have very similar challenges. I set up this schedule of webinars that we do, and it’s basically the first week of the month is always the same kind of webinar. The second week is something else. The third week is something else, so it’s a very consistent … you know me well enough. I like systems and processes. I’m really into that.

I found it made it more predictable for our members, but it also was easier to create content for the program when I had these predetermined buckets that I had to fill. What we’re doing is, the first week of the month, we have this master class educational session. That is no-holds-barred, pure education. We’ve really put a lot of effort you joined us, actually, you and Loryn Thompson joined us last month, or earlier this month, I guess, for the educational session in June.

That’s usually a very high-level and in-depth educational session. We typically create a downloadable worksheet or some kind of handout so that people can apply what they’re learning to their own businesses.

The second week of the month, we’re calling it our ABC sessions, Authority Business Coaching. We invite people to apply to be on these sessions. Then when they are with us live, we do all sorts of things. We look at their websites. We talk about their marketing efforts. We talk about how they could build an email list. We talk about also what’s working because a lot of people have things that are working really well, so it’s a matter of building on their strengths.

That ends up being almost like a private coaching session that others can watch and benefit from. Because so many of us are dealing with the same kinds of business challenges, people have loved those sessions. We’re so grateful for the people who volunteer to basically put their businesses out there and get coaching live. They seem to benefit from it, but then the people watching benefit as well. Those have been a lot of fun.

Then we have always done a live Q&A session every month, and we’re continuing with those. We like to call those mini coaching sessions because it’s an opportunity for people to ask a question directly of staff members from Rainmaker Digital, who are the people manning those sessions. Sonia and I do a lot of them, but I invite special guests in, too.

Then we do this Behind the Scenes session at the end of the month, which is basically highlighting a member who has had some success in some area. We have all sorts of different members with all sorts of different businesses. They might have a product launch that went really well, and they want to talk about that. Or they did something for their email marketing that just made their list grow like crazy, so they talk about that.

It’s just an opportunity to highlight members who have figured something out, and they want to share it with the rest of the membership. Those have also been popular. Basically, 50 percent of our content is highlighting a member of the community inside Authority, and that has been so much fun. It has really helped me to get to know our membership better, and I think members have enjoyed just getting to know one another’s businesses and learning.

Jerod Morris: Yeah. It creates community. It puts people into a spotlight, which people like. And like you said, with the coaching opportunities, the one-on-ones, that’s a great way to provide really significant, specific, one-on-one value to folks, but also value that others can learn from. Those Q&As, even if you don’t have a question answered, a lot of times it can be really valuable.

We’re not going through all of the things inside of Authority here as a commercial for Authority. It’s really more to let you see some of these options that we’re doing. For anybody who’s listening to this who has their own membership site or is thinking about doing it, these are all ideas that you can incorporate into your own.

Why It’s So Important to Find the Elusive Sweet Spot Between Effort and Income–And How to Know When You’re Out of Balance

Jerod Morris: The challenge, of course, is that it’s not easy to do this, and I’m sure, Pamela, as people heard you talking about doing this every week, and this every week, and this every week, it can sound a little bit like this intimidating machine that just needs to constantly be fed. This is where I want to transition into your talk at Digital Commerce Summit. You’re going to be talking about this.

Obviously, you can’t just spend 24 hours of every single day creating new membership content. That’d be perfect, and you’d create, I guess, more value, but the goal is, for gathering a community around you to teach–and to make money doing so–as you said earlier, is finding that elusive sweet spot between effort and income.

How do we find that sweet spot, and how do you do all of this inside of Authority and still make sure that it is a profitable use on your time that’s getting a good return on the investment?

Pamela Wilson: Right. Again, that’s where approaching this as, rather than something that you have to just keep doing week after week, and month after month, I actually find it very freeing to have created these … I like to call them ‘content buckets.’ I know it’s a very technical term, but it’s content buckets.

You know the first week of the month, you’re not starting from scratch. You know what you need to put together, and the second week of the month, you know what you need to put together. Frankly, some of these sessions require a lot more time and preparation than others. For example, the educational session, I put a lot of time and effort into creating those, and I want to make them really, really high value.

We want them all to be high value, but for example, for a Q&A, all I really have to do is to look through the questions. Sometimes I do some minor research on things I want to recommend to people, but there’s not as much prep time.

Having this schedule and this system in place really helps you to pace yourself as you’re creating content for your membership program. That’s where that sweet spot comes into play. You do have to find this place where the time and the money that you’re pouring into your membership program is balanced by your profit. Profit is earnings after you pay all of your expenses.

You have to make sure that any money that you’re spending to keep your membership program alive is balanced with the effort and the time you’re putting into it. You have to do the equation and make sure it’s all worth it.

Jerod Morris: Obviously, a big part of tracking that is knowing your numbers, literally having those numbers there. Are there any other warning signs that you might be able to shed some light on that maybe hint at the fact that this is a little bit out of balance? Anything that you’ve found, outside of just literally tracking the numbers?

The Potential Impact of Tracking Your Time

Pamela Wilson: Yeah. Honestly, I think people have to be willing to do the hard math of saying, “How much time am I pouring into this? How much am I earning from it, and how much does that end up giving me per hour?” for example.

As content creators, a lot of us get really caught up in the content creation process, and sometimes we don’t step back and say, “How many hours am I actually pouring into this, and how much profit am I actually seeing?” It can be hard to do that because sometimes you don’t like the answer, but it’s always better to know the answer and to just say, “Okay, obviously I need to make some adjustments here, and I’ll just make them.”

As much as possible, I love the idea of trying to systematize your content creation for any kind of a program, membership program, any kind of a teaching product. You want to try to systematize it as much as possible. If you own your own business, you always want to look for things that you could hand over to someone who you don’t have to pay as much as what your time is worth.

Look for an assistant-type person, a virtual assistant. Some people use college students who are trying to get experience, and they pay them a paid internship. They’re able to do some things that are important, but maybe can be taught and passed over to someone else once you give them a process. Like any good business owner, you do have to look for ways to do that, that keep your expenses down, and then free up your time so that you can focus on the more high-level stuff.

Jerod Morris: Do you actually track your time?

Pamela Wilson: I don’t track my time now. I used to, though. When I was running my own business, I did. I would track my own time. When I was working for clients, obviously I would track time for them. I never charged by the hour. I always charged by the project price, but I always tracked my time because I just wanted to see. It’s like, “This is what I estimated this project would take me to do. How long did it actually take?” That made me much more accurate over time when I went to estimate projects, so yeah, I did that as a habit.

Jerod Morris: It’s interesting. I hosted a case study inside of Digital Commerce Academy with Andrea Vahl, someone that you know very well. She was telling the story of these two different campaigns she did because she’s obviously very big on testing, which is a smart thing to do.

She had this campaign in February, this launch campaign, and she was going over these different variables and different results for how many people opted-in, different lead magnets that she had, and all these different things. One of the things that she tracked to see how successful this was, was time. For instance, the first campaign took her 15 hours, and the second campaign took her seven hours, and that was all kind of factored into, “Okay, how successful was this?”

It was kind of eye opening for me because we track lots of different variables, like cost per click and all these other different things, and trying to compare the revenue from one to the revenue of the other. In our heads, we understand that we want this to take a little bit less time, but when you actually put the time there, you see the hours that it took.

I hadn’t thought about doing that, but I’m actually considering starting to do that now for myself, just to track the time and see, “Okay, how much is this really taking me? What am I getting out of this?” I’ve never wanted to do it because it just seems a little bit annoying. Maybe not do it forever, but to do it for six months just to see and get a gauge., I think it really could be useful and helpful.

Pamela Wilson: It’s kind of like people who are dieting, and they keep a food log.

Jerod Morris: Yes!

Pamela Wilson: They log every single bite that goes in their mouths, and sometimes it’s very eye opening. Or you start wearing a Fitbit, and you’re like, “Oh, gosh. Maybe the reason I’m not very in shape is because I’m only walking like 1,700 steps every day.”

Jerod Morris: Yeah. You know the funny thing about that is I’ve lost maybe 11, 12 pounds in the last three months, and a big part of it is because I started tracking my calories. When you can actually see it, it does, it helps you eat less because you’re like, “Whoa, I’ve already had that much today. Okay. Let me back off a little bit at dinner.”

Pamela Wilson: Yeah. It’s like knowledge is power.

Jerod Morris: It really is.

Pamela Wilson: Yeah, and that is an old habit from having owned my own business for many years. One of the things that you realize is you are one person, and you only have 24 hours. You can’t manufacture more time for yourself, so you start to become very efficient at using your time, then taking the things that you have to get done, and finding possibly people who can do them more efficiently so that you can focus on things that other people cannot do. It’s an old habit, but I think it’s a good one.

Jerod Morris: Pamela, for the digital entrepreneur who’s out there right now, who’s listening to this episode, and who is considering going down the road of building an educational membership site–they haven’t yet, but they’re thinking about it–what’s the biggest piece of advice that you would give that person about how to get started?

The Single Biggest Piece of Advice Pamela Would Give to People Thinking About Starting a Membership Community, and Those Already in the Midst of Running One

Pamela Wilson: The biggest thing when you’re starting out a membership site is there is this feeling like, “Okay, I’m getting on this hamster wheel, and I can’t ever get off. I just have to keep creating content for my membership program.” Depending on how you structure it, it might be a membership program that doesn’t have ongoing content, but either way, there is this feeling like you have a tremendous amount of work ahead of you.

I would say anything that you can do to simplify your processes and set up systems from the very beginning, you will be very happy to have those things in place. Just look at all of the tasks you have going on, and see if there are things where you could bring in someone to help you with them.

See if there are ways that you can create, like I said, content buckets, consistent content that you create week after week, so you’re not starting from scratch. Find ways to maybe have some weeks that take more time and effort and some weeks where it doesn’t take as much. You’re still delivering the value, but maybe it doesn’t take quite as much time and effort to produce. Even hamsters have to take a break once in a while.

Jerod Morris: That’s right. How about for the digital entrepreneur who already has a membership site and wants to iterate it and take it to the next level? What’s the biggest piece of advice that you would give to that person?

Pamela Wilson: Yeah. I would say, again, if you don’t have systems in place, getting them in place and finding ways to make your job easier is going to help you just keep your momentum and your enthusiasm going over the long haul.

And I’ll share this link with you. There are interesting problems that happen after you do have quite a bit of content on a membership site, and Debbie Hodge actually wrote about that for us on Copyblogger, about what you can do to organize your content to make it easier to get through, easier to find, and things like that. I’ll share that post with you. That’s a fantastic resource. Those are the problems you have once you have a membership site that’s been around for a while, and you have a lot of content.

Jerod Morris: Perfect. You will be able to find those in the show notes. Pamela, thank you so much. This was wonderful. We really appreciate your insights, and I know I am looking forward to seeing you speak at Digital Commerce Summit. It’ll be a good one.

Pamela Wilson: It’s going to be so much fun. I can’t wait to be there.

How to Take Your Digital Business to the Next Level

Jerod Morris: It is. It’s going to be great. We hope that you will join us. Again, the conference is October 13 and 14 in Denver, Colorado. For more information, go to Rainmaker.FM/Summit. There are still early bird tickets, and as I mentioned earlier, it’s going to be a great event, and it’s the place where you will discover smarter ways to create and sell profitable digital goods and services.

Maybe you have a digital product or service, and you want to take it to the next level. Maybe you’ve been thinking about it. You’ve been thinking about getting started. This conference would be great for you as well. Rainmaker.FM/Summit.

We hope to see you there, and we hope to see you on the next episode of The Digital Entrepreneur, which will be here next week. Until then, take care, everybody.

The Transcript

Brian Clark Is Doing What?

Voiceover: You are listening to The Digital Entrepreneur, the show for folks who want to discover smarter ways to create and sell profitable digital goods and services. This podcast is a production of Digital Commerce Institute, a place to be for digital entrepreneurs.

DCI features an in-depth, on-going instructional academy, plus a live education and networking summit where entrepreneurs from across the globe meet in person. For more information, go to Rainmaker.FM/DigitalCommerce.

Jerod Morris: Welcome back to The Digital Entrepreneur. This is episode No. 18 of The Digital Entrepreneur. I am your host, Jerod Morris, VP of marketing for Rainmaker Digital.

Last week, Sonia Simone joined us to provide a little taste of her closing keynote at the upcoming Digital Commerce Summit, which takes place this October in Denver, Colorado, as we mentioned. You can get more details about the summit at Rainmaker.FM/Summit.

If you missed that episode with Sonia, make sure that you get caught up. It’s called Sonia Simone’s Secret to Starting the 1,000-Piece Jigsaw Puzzle of Building a Successful Business. If you’re looking for some advice and inspiration about the mindset needed to be a successful entrepreneur from a trusted source, that episode is for you.

This week, another of the keynote speakers at Digital Commerce Summit is here as Brian Clark makes his triumphant return to The Digital Entrepreneur, fresh off his season-ending interview with Henry Rollins over at Unemployable, which really is a must listen for anyone who fancies himself or herself a digital entrepreneur. We will link to that in the show notes.

Brian, how was that interview with Henry? It was certainly great to listen to. It must have been a blast to be able to interview one of your heroes yet again.

Brian’s Recent Interview with His Hero, Henry Rollins

Brian Clark: Yeah, ‘yet again’ is the key phrase because I don’t get nervous, Jerod, and the first time I interviewed Rollins, I was a wreck. It didn’t really come across that way, so I held it together. But this time, he’s just such a cool guy, and you know that I drove him to Boulder after our event last year for his show that you went to as well, which was awesome.

Jerod Morris: Yeah it was.

Brian Clark: It’s not like I respect him any less, but he’s a guy. He’s a great guy. You just start to realize that fame can sometimes make people worse, but it certainly hasn’t done it to him. This time, it was just really a very relaxed conversation. I think it came through that way.

But you know Henry. You throw up something for him, and he’ll talk for 15 minutes on that and say things you couldn’t have imagined that you could have coaxed out of him. Then you just throw him another one, and he runs with it.

Jerod Morris: Yeah, and well, I loved how you mentioned being respectful of his time toward the end that you were going to cut it off, and he’s like, “No, no, no, I’m enjoying answering these questions. Ask me more. Keep going.” That was awesome.

Brian Clark: Yeah. I think Henry, understandably, doesn’t mind being recognized for how hard he works and all the things he’s done, not being with his hand held by management or whatever. Black Flag, they had to do it all themselves, and he just kept doing that.

You’ll notice the theme of that, which you hear from us a lot. Why we bootstrap and those type of things is because it’s freedom. He gets to do what he wants to do. He does this project in order to do the next project. That’s been a recurring theme over at Unemployable all season, which is really interesting to me because, again, that’s how I am. I just thought I was weird.

Jerod Morris: Yeah. Well, definitely check out that episode. You can check it out on the show notes for this episode or go to Rainmaker.FM and find it on the Unemployable page.

On this week’s episode here on The Digital Entrepreneur, Brian is here to update us on how his side projects Further and Unemployable are going and talk a little bit about what he’s learning, what his future plans are.

First, Brian, this is related, but you sent me an interesting email this morning. We were going back and forth about what to discuss on this week’s show. You said we could talk about “why I’m going to start publishing on Medium.” Immediately when I read that, bells started ringing. Let’s just into this right now. You, on Medium? What’s going on?

Brian’s Decision to Syndicate Articles on Medium

Brian Clark: It really is a function of trying out new things with my side projects. No risk, low impact. It doesn’t matter if it works or not, really, compared to the main business. But as you know and Chris Garrett knows, I’m one of the best sources of feedback for the Rainmaker Platform by using it. Often, you won’t find a CEO that actually uses the technology they sell.

We always have, and that’s very important to me, the user experience as a content producer, a curator but not an overly technical person. The more I can do by myself, the better, which is why, unless I just get really stuck, I don’t let any of you guys help me. Obviously, I’m in the podcast network, so for Unemployable, that really helps. But Chris Ducker and Jon also have those deals, too. I get treated like anyone else when it comes to that stuff.

Why This Isn’t Digital Sharecropping

Brian Clark: The whole idea of publishing on Medium is something I want to try. Now, the first thing that is popping in people’s heads, going, “Wait, wait, wait. You, the anti-digital sharecropper extraordinaire are going to go publish on someone else’s land?” No. I’m not going to blog on Medium. I’m going to syndicate on Medium.

What that means is, I’m going to take content that I’ve already created–for example, it could be some of the articles I’ve written for Further in the past. Actually, I know for sure a lot of the topics I covered on the Unemployable podcast, I’m going to take the transcripts, go back and review, and then turn it into an article.

We’ve talked about repurposing content over and over again over the years. Let’s take Unemployable, for example. My main goal with Unemployable, at this phase–I’m not selling anything yet–is the podcast and the curated email newsletter. Those are my assets. Those are my original things that I own, and that’s where I’m always pointing everything to.

But if I can repurpose content and put it on another platform, to me, it’s like guest posting–except there’s no requirement that it be original content. I’ve been watching Medium for a while, and there’s some really interesting aspects to it. I think you might have picked up on those as well.

Jerod Morris: Yeah, I have because I’ve been thinking about doing the same thing with some of my side projects and the same, not publishing new content over there, but taking content that’s already been created and syndicating it over there.

It is. It’s interesting what they do with collections. It’s interesting what they do with their own curated newsletter because I get that. I get that in my inbox, and I find myself reading over there. There’s a lot of interesting content, interesting things going on there. It’s a good way, it seems, to get discovered.

When you look at people that are doing it right, you read their article, you get down to the end, and a lot of times, there’s a call to action to get on their newsletter or to go connect with them over on their site. That’s a very important part of any strategy like this. Like you said, it’s not publishing. It’s syndicating.

Brian Clark: Exactly. Now, if you’re a hardcore SEO-type person, you may not like it, but Google is getting much better at finding the original source anyway. If you just publish on your own site first, you can probably almost immediately go over and hit Medium.

But think about it this way. Again, if you were guest posting and a lot of people, from Leo over Zen Habits, Danny Iny did it when he started out, they just went on this massive guest-posting binges because you get access to someone else’s community, someone else’s audience.

That’s what Medium is right now. It’s built probably more effectively than a lot of other platforms in the sense that there is a community over there. It’s something like 650,000 people at this point. Not massive, but it’s interesting.

The mechanisms by which things prove to be popular is very much like a social network. It’s a social content platform. There’s a community there, and if you publish good content and it catches on, you get access to that community. And like you said, everything is pointing back to my site and, in particular, the assets that I’m trying to build at this point.

Here’s the kicker. When I got over there and was playing with it and I actually set up an account–got Unemployable as my log in, thank you

Jerod Morris: Nice.

Brian Clark: Then I realized that, because I logged in with Twitter, the founders of Twitter and Medium it’s not a Twitter company, but they’re the same guys. My largest audience is at Twitter for social media, and all of a sudden, everyone who follows me on Twitter that’s also on Medium prepopulated into my audience. I had an instant following of 24,000 people. That’s kind of cool.

Jerod Morris: That is kind of cool. It’s very cool. When it comes to your strategy over there, then, how will you decide or determine which posts to put over there, which posts to syndicate?

Identifying Which Posts to Syndicate

Brian Clark: That’s the fun of it really. Like I said, there’s a ton of audio content, and despite there being transcripts, it’s not really in that really digestible format that a good article might be. Some of those episodes you can make two articles out of, maybe three.

Quoting people I’ve interviewed–like Rollins, Gary Vaynerchuk, Tim Ferriss, Annie Cushing–lot of great guests where you can take what they talked about, turn it into an article, quote them. That’s pretty cool. That’s one aspect of it.

The other thing is, like I mentioned with Further, taking some of the short curated summaries that I do as my lead, which is different from what I do with just more brief summary and link stuff over at Further, and publish some of that stuff and see what happens.

The first thing I’m trying and by the time this airs, I should know what happened. We may have to do a follow-up episode. But what I did was take some of my sources that I curate for Unemployable, and I created those classic attention-getting “The 22 Best Sites for Freelancers,” “The 10 Best Sites for Creative Entrepreneurs”–you get the idea.

When you think about it, that’s a perfect post. It has a good chance of being popular. Number two, you lead in and say something like, “Hey, I do the work for you with the Unemployable newsletter, curating the week’s best content, but I thought you might like to see some of my favorite sources.”

You’re promoting the newsletter in a very organic way, right there in the lead of the article, and people are like, “Yeah, these are some good sites, but why do I want to go surf all these sites every week. This guy’s going to do it for me.” So we’ll see how it works.

Jerod Morris: With both of those, with Further and Unemployable, you’re very much in the audience-building phase of those projects. For someone who’s listening to this who may be further along in one of those projects or look at us, for example, with the platform or with Digital Commerce Institute, if we were going to try and use Medium as part of that strategy, would you recommend …

Brian Clark: And if it works, we will.

Jerod Morris: Oh I’m sure. Is that something where you would recommend writing a post, writing a piece of content and then having a direct call to action at the end to go to a product? Or would you really more try and use it to build a list that would then pitch a product? How would you address that?

The Single Most Important Element of a Smart Syndication Strategy

Brian Clark: You know the answer to that. The only difference between what I’m doing now, say with Unemployable, which is a general list-building strategy versus a specific funnel that leads to an eventual offer. That’s the only difference in how I would use Medium. So when you have something to sell, you get more strategic about where you send people. Effectively, you’re always list building.

Jerod Morris: Yeah. So let’s talk about Further and Unemployable on a bigger scale because I know there have been a lot of questions. Every time we have a Q&A that you’re going to be on, people want to know more about how these are going.

Let’s maybe just talk about each one individually, maybe something important that you’ve learned, and what your plans are going forward. How would you assess that with Further so far?

Updates On How Brian’s Side Projects–Further.net and Unemployable–Are Going

Brian Clark: Further, I don’t really think about. It’s clearly got commercial potential down the road, but I don’t really worry about it so much. Unemployable is a good channel for both Digital Commerce Institute and the Rainmaker Platform, so I think more commercially about that project–although most of the time, I forget to even do it like a sponsor.

But the main thing is, I really enjoy curation. There’s an art to it, and I think it’s necessary–not because there’s so much great content that no one can find it, because there’s so much crap content that someone needs to weed through the click bait. People have actually gotten shy about clicking a great headline anymore because they’re worried that it’s just hype.

Why the Role of Curator Will Grow Even More Important

Brian Clark: The role of curators is going to become more and more important. Now, of course, in 2006, I said, “No, you can’t do that. You’ve got to create original content,” but that was a very different time. I think some people blame Copyblogger because “You’re supposed to write a great headline with great content, people”–I always said that. But the curation thing is enjoyable.

I’ve developed an entire methodology and even a business model where you never have to create your own content if you don’t want to, although I think it makes sense down the road once you have an audience to start doing originals. That’s what I’m already starting to do with Unemployable, as I mentioned.

But curation is so broad and necessary. For example, I consider the podcast interview format an act of curation. Effectively, you’re taking someone else’s content. They’re just speaking it to you, though, in an interview format. The better interviewer you are, the better curator and content creator you become.

But it’s still not the same as just having to sit down and create something from scratch. Because I do both type of episodes–I do solo lessons, and then I do the interviews–I can tell you, I love interviews. They’re so much fun. As long as you’re good at asking questions, it’s easy.

Jerod Morris: They are.

Brian Clark: But beyond that, look at affiliate marketing. Look at The Wirecutter. Now, they do reviews, which is a valuable original content creation service, but they’re curating Amazon products, effectively. Then one more step removed, I don’t know if you’ve ever seen
Canva, but they don’t even write reviews. They just curate the best products. They point out what’s on sale, what’s cool, what’s hip. I can’t believe, but apparently they make a lot of money. It’s amazing.

When you marry the topical content curation aspect with the relevant product and service curation, which is the same way we develop products, it’s easier to find someone else’s product and see if people buy it, of course. I don’t know if you remember that interview I did with Darren Rowse on this show under its former title. That’s how Darren figures out what to create. He sees what people buy as an affiliate, and then he builds his own version of it.

Jerod Morris: Where are we at with curation right now? Obviously, we’ve seen a lot of people who are starting to do more curation. Is it still in the early stages where people should get in and start to carve out their niche? Is it already getting over saturated? How do you see the current curation market if someone’s thinking about doing this?

The Current State of the Curation Market

Brian Clark: I think people struggle with the business model aspect of it. Even Jason Hirschhorn of MediaREDEF, he wants to charge money for curation. I don’t think people are going to pay. I don’t know. I could be wrong. Dave Pell has sponsors every once in a while, but Dave mainly does that because he’s an Angel investor. That probably brings him deal flow.

Everyone has their own reasons for curating, but I think a lot of people get stumped on, “How do I actually make money from this?” That’s why I’m trying to point out the intersection between curated products and curated content. That’s a natural match.

Again, once you have an audience, you can afford to publish original content. You just start to supplement your newsletter with your own stuff. Then you’re getting into more search benefits, social sharing, all that kind of stuff. Then also, on the affiliate side, you find something that’s working and that gives you inspiration. You know what your audience will buy at that point. So all you’re left with is the traffic and audience-building problem.

Jerod Morris: Yeah, I think the big struggle for folks when it comes to curation is that it is a time investment to do well. That’s really the value that you’re providing–the time to go out and read, research, and consume 30 articles and pick the best five. There is some legwork that’s involved in that.

Then it’s figuring out, “Okay, what business model, either direct or indirect, more likely, can I have on this that is going to make that time investment worth it?” That’s why some people have started and maybe not finished or not continued because it does get a little bit time-consuming for them.

How to Think About Curation Like an Entrepreneur (Not Just a Content Creator)

Brian Clark: Well, let me point this out. The issue here is, if you’ve got something to sell, you can advertise. You can break even and/or make a profit while building your audience. That’s huge. Now, think about Further for a second. Let’s say that I’m a live coach. Further would sell the hell out of those services. Anyone in the wellness industry, personal development is such a huge field, so if you’re a service provider, that’s a no brainer.

That’s what I really start thinking about in terms of potential business models. But again, if I had that type of business, starting something like Further is an immediate ROI venture. Further’s not huge because I don’t do anything to market it, but thousands and thousands of people have signed up for it even though I am not a personal development guy. I’m more of a personal development wreck outside of entrepreneurism, but I’m fighting back, man.

I’ve told people this all the time. Take people on the journey with you, and all you’re doing is sharing what you’ve learned. People start looking at you like, “Hey, this is a guy who knows what he’s talking about.” It actually is working on me because you learn better by teaching others.

It’s one of the number one ways to internalize true expertise, to have to teach someone what you just read. You can read a book three times, and you’ll never know what it as well as if you are forced to sit down and summarize it for people accurately.

Jerod Morris: That’s a great point. One question. I want to go back to Medium real quick before we close off for this episode. I want to ask you a question because we’re starting to see a trend now of sites almost building themselves directly on Medium.

Of course, you talked about using this as a syndication strategy, but what do you think of this trend that we’re starting to see? For instance, Bill Simmons’ new site The Ringer just launched today, the day that we’re recording this, and it’s all on Medium. They don’t even have their own website. It is all built directly on Medium. What do you think of that?

What Brian Thinks of the Latest Trend of Sites (Like The Ringer) Being Built Entirely on Medium

Brian Clark: I think that’s a mistake. Bill Simmons is Internet savvy, but I don’t think he’s learned his lesson. Where did his problems come from? Being on ESPN’s platform. Now you just go on to someone else’s platform. He’s going from where’s ESPN, Connecticut?

Jerod Morris: Yeah.

Brian Clark: He’s gone from Connecticut to Silicon Valley. Do you think they care about you anymore? Eventually, they will change the rules, and I’ll be fine because I’ve got my own home base. You use these platforms until they change, but Medium’s got to make money someday.

I don’t know how it’s going to happen, but we know what happened with Facebook. We know what happened with Tumbler. We know what happened with YouTube. Come on, people. Syndicate, but don’t just build your house over there.

Jerod Morris: You’re saying the fundamentals of digital sharecropping remain.

Brian Clark: Unfortunately. We will talk about this until we’re just old people, I swear.

Jerod Morris: We will. Well, Brian, thanks for coming on. Thanks for the insight. We’ll be looking forward to seeing your posts on Medium and get an update on how it all works.

Brian Clark: All right. No problem at all.

Jerod Morris: Hey, one last question for you before you go. Sonia gave us a little bit of a heads up on her keynote, what she’s going to be talking about at Digital Commerce Summit. You’re going to be talking about the future of digital commerce, opening up the second day over there at Digital Commerce Summit, which I can’t wait for. Any little tidbits? Any insight you want to share on what you’ll be talking about during that keynote?

The Focus of Brian’s Keynote at Digital Commerce Summit

Brian Clark: Yeah, it’s definitely a look forward that’s not too esoteric because I think things are happening maybe even a little quicker than we think. You and I spoke about virtual reality a couple weeks back. That’s going to be included.

There’s just interesting statistics now. We’re talking at the entrepreneur level at this summit, but I saw some interesting data that said that the largest fortune of MarTech spending at the enterprise level is on digital commerce.

Jerod Morris: Wow.

Brian Clark: Yeah. Scott Brinker says, “We don’t do digital marketing anymore. We market in a digital world.” That’s true, but wait till it’s literally a digital world when we immerse ourselves in these environments, and it changes the way we work, how we collaborate.

Companies like ours that are all over the world are going to become the norm instead of the weirdos. It’s fascinating to me, and I realized that, if I’m this charged up about something after 18 years on the Internet from a business perspective, then that’s probably what I ought to talk about.

Jerod Morris: Which makes me think, if we end up having virtual meetings, 15, 20 years from now, how will the introverts handle that? Will they be okay since you’re not physically in the same room?

Brian Clark: I think that will be more like five, and I don’t know–but I’ll let you know firsthand.

Take Your Digital Business to the Next Level

Jerod Morris: Again, for more information on Digital Commerce Summit, go to Rainmaker.FM/Summit. The early bird ticket pricing is still available as of the publishing of this episode, so you don’t want to wait because eventually that price will go up. We would love to see you all in Denver this October at Digital Commerce Summit. Again, Rainmaker.FM/Summit.

All right, Brian, thank you for being here, and thank you for listening to this episode of The Digital Entrepreneur. We will be back next week with a brand-new episode. We’ll talk to you then.

The Transcript

Sonia Simone’s Secret to Starting the 1,000-Piece Jigsaw Puzzle of Building a Successful Business

Voiceover: You’re listening to the Digital Entrepreneur, the show for folks who want to discover smarter ways to create and sell profitable digital goods and services. This podcast is a production of Digital Commerce Institute, the place to be for digital entrepreneurs. DCI features an in-depth, ongoing instructional academy, plus a live education and networking summit where entrepreneurs from across the globe meet in person. For more information, go to Rainmaker.FM/digitalcommerce. That’s Rainmaker.FM/digitalcommerce.

Jerod Morris: Welcome back to another brand new episode of the Digital Entrepreneur. This is episode number 17 of the Digital Entrepreneur. I am your host, Jerod Morris, the VP of Marketing for Rainmaker Digital. I am joined by one of my great work colleagues, one of my good friends, and one of the co-founders of Rainmaker Digital. She is also the chief content officer. A person, a voice, a personality that you know well, Ms. Sonia Simone. Who is also a keynote speaker at the upcoming Digital Commerce Summit. Sonia, how are you doing?

Sonia Simone: I’m good. I’m having a good day, doing my thing.

Jerod Morris: Very good. I definitely appreciate you taking the time to talk with us today. We have a really important topic to talk about which I feel like sometimes we kind of shy away from and feel like we’re wasting time almost if we talk about it, but it really is important. We’re going to get to that in just a second. The reason why you’re going to be talking about that with us is because it’s going to be what your closing keynote is about at Digital Commerce Summit.

Most of you listening have probably heard us talk about Digital Commerce Summit before, but if you haven’t, Digital Commerce Summit is the premier live educational and networking event for people who create and sell digital products and services. That’s the big tag line. More casually, it is our annual event. We’ve put on an annual event now for a couple of years. This is now the new annual event that we are doing in conjunction with Digital Commerce Academy, which we launched toward the end of last year.

So Digital Commerce Summit will really focus on the underlying process behind creating and selling digital goods and services. It’s going to be a great event for networking and also a great event for learning from people like Sonia. People like Brian Clark, Rand Fishkin, Chris Ducker, Chris Lema, and Jeff Walker. A lot of really great people are going to be there sharing their expertise and sharing their insight, and we want to tell you about it because currently the early bird pricing is still available — it’s $795 for a ticket. It will eventually go up to $995, so I wanted to make sure that you had another opportunity to hear about it, another reason to go. Go check out the URL Rainmaker.FM/summit and that will give you more details about it.

Don’t do it quite yet. Listen in, because the best way to get details about this is to actually hear from one of the speakers and hear her talk about one of the things that she’s going to be talking about. That’s what we’re going to talk about with Sonia today. Sonia, your closing keynote — which is going to be on the first day of Digital Commerce Summit — the title of it is “It’s All In Your Head: Developing the Digital Entrepreneur Mindset.”

Why is Focusing on Mindset a Worthwhile Investment of Our Time and Energy?

Jerod Morris: I want to start out by playing devil’s advocate for a minute to kick things off. Isn’t mindset talk just a bunch of frou-frou nonsense? Wouldn’t we be better served by just delving into tried-and-true tactics and rolling up our sleeves and getting to work? Why do we need to worry about mindset?

Sonia Simone: Jerod, I’m shocked and offended you would ask that question. I’m not really shocked and offended. It’s interesting, because in our company that’s actually the real question. Brian Clark will ask me, “Why are we doing this?” The answer really comes out of my experience — particularly at conferences. I think that anybody who’s ever been to a good conference where you get a lot of information, a lot of good things that you can use, you think, “Oh, yeah. I can totally try that. That would work. I’m sure that would work. I’m going to try that out.”

You get so many things that you’re going to implement, and you get home and if you do one thing it’s a miracle. Knowing what to do matters. It is important. You want to be working on things that have the best chance of succeeding for your individual unique combination of topic and skills and strengths and weaknesses. You want tactics. Tactics are very important. But if you do not implement then you don’t get results, there’s no way around it. It’s so easy for us to say, “Yeah, I’m totally going to implement. This time I’m going to implement. It’s not going to be like all those other times when I didn’t implement. This time I’m going to implement.”

Really the point of the talk … First of all, where it’s positioned is at the end of day one. You’ve got a head full of juicy ideas. You’re fired up. You know that some of these things are going to make a material difference. The timing of this is so that you get up and you go back to your room for a half hour before you go out to the party and you do something. You actually implement something. And you really can. In a half hour it’s amazing how much you can get done. It’s about getting the spark while the fire is still burning and using it.

Also learning what’s going to keep you implementing, what’s going to keep that momentum rolling as you move forward. Because we don’t want you to get fired up at the conference, have a wonderful time, go home, and have the same exact thing that you had before the conference. The whole point of the conference is transformation and action. That’s why we’re talking mindset. It’s really about getting yourself to do the things that you know will be beneficial.

Jerod Morris: Yeah, You know what’s so interesting about that? You’ll appreciate this. About 15 minutes ago while I was preparing for our conversation I had this spark of inspiration. I was scrolling through Digital Commerce Summit and I saw the description for my own presentation — which I’m giving on the first day — and it led me to this idea for what my first slide can be and the opening statement that I can make. It just hit me, and I was like, “Oh crap, what should I do with this real quick? Should I open up a Google doc?” I was like, “Let me just pull out a notecard. I already know what I’m going to do with it.”

That’s something that you and I — we went to a conference together back in February, a really transformative conference. One of the things that we learned is this whole notecard idea and this way to capture ideas and organize presentations. It’s great. It’s amazing that that still — it doesn’t just linger on, it literally drives.

I know you do this. I do this. And that has been so much of our inspiration — different tweaks that we want to make to our conference to add to it, to make it better. That’s what a great conference should do, really spit you out — yes, with the tactics and with new strategies. But, like you said, they are pointless if when you fly back home, by the time you land you’ve forgotten about them or if you don’t have the motivation or whatever it takes to actually implement them.

Here we are months later and we’re still doing all this stuff from the conference that we went to. That’s our goal with Digital Commerce Summit, for people to be feeling the same way months, even years after the conference because of what they’ve learned and what they’ve gained in this direction — if they’re really excited to go in it.

Sonia Simone: Yeah, Exactly.

Jerod Morris: You know what else is interesting too? In terms of the structure of the conference, your presentation coming at the end of the first day. It’ll be a really interesting bookend to Rand Fishkin’s opening keynote in which he’s going to share the story of Moz and the many highs and lows along the way, a lot of which were driven by his fluctuating mindset and how that all played into it. I think it will be a really interesting bookend to see one of those presentations at the beginning and then yours at the end. It will be a great way to kick off and end that first day.

Sonia Simone: I agree. It’s going to be interesting.

How the Mindset of an Entrepreneur Is More of a Skill to Be Developed than Simply an Innate Talent

Jerod Morris: Okay, let’s get back to talking about mindset here. How is the mindset of a digital business owner — a digital entrepreneur — a skill rather than an innate talent? And why is that distinction important?

Sonia Simone: I think this comes up a lot for people. There are some people — and typically it’s because there’s something in your background that opened this idea up to you — that will look at a tactic and they’ll say, “That’s a good idea.” And they just sit down and do it. The Gary Vaynerchuk type. That kind of high energy, hyped up, action-oriented, not necessarily … A lot of those people are not great planners and they’re not great long-term strategic people, but they get a lot of stuff done. They throw a lot of spaghetti against the wall and some of it sticks.

I think there’s a belief — and it’s very prevalent, especially in the United States — that that is the kind of person who can own a business. That that is the sort of temperament that business owners have. If you don’t have that temperament in your DNA, then you don’t get to own a business. That that’s the only kind of person who can be a successful business owner. But also that a certain amount of that habit of just sitting down and getting it done — just sit down and knock something out real quickly and see what happens — that that’s always an innate trait and that it’s not something that we can learn. We can learn so much more than we think we can. I love Carol Dweck’s work on fixed mindset versus growth mindset.

A fixed mindset is, “I have a certain set of talents. I have a certain intelligence. I have a certain level of energy and drive. That’s what I’ve got and the degree to which I succeed or fail is based on the cards that I was dealt and we’re done with the conversation.” The growth mindset is, “I can get better at things I’m not good at. I can find workarounds for things that are not strengths. Maybe I can either figure out a creative way to not do them, figure out a creative way to partner, or just get better.” A lot of times we can get better at a lot more things than we think we can.

That growth mindset is a question of realizing it. Maybe just noticing in yourself where you have this fixed mindset comes up — most of us have it about some things — and then reminding yourself that that’s not the only way to think about it. It’s not useful, it doesn’t serve you. It’s really much more a collection of habits than it is your DNA. Some people are by nature a little more optimistic, and some people are definitely by nature more introverted or extroverted. There are things that are innate. But you can work with almost any kind of personality type if you can just figure out a good habit set that suits you. That’s where we’re always talking about how unique every business is, because every business owner is so different.

Jerod Morris: Since I’ve known you I don’t think there’s any topic that I’ve seen you get as worked up about, and I mean that in a good way, passionate about outside of this idea that entrepreneurs are born rather than made. Is that something that you’ve seen over and over again? Where people that we might classify as, “they don’t have the traits to be an entrepreneur,” but they’ve gone on to be successful? Have you seen lots of examples of that happening because people have cultivated the skills and habits to make it happen?

Sonia Simone: I have. I think I get cranky about it because for so many years I totally bought into it. I was never much of a salesperson. I was never any good at it. It always made me feel weird, even when I was a kid selling raffle tickets. I like to joke that I couldn’t sell raffle tickets to my grandmother, mostly because I couldn’t make the call and then I couldn’t close the sale. It seemed kind of weird.

I was held back by it for a long time, and really only was able to resolve it from having my back against the wall because I was in a really difficult economy and jobs were not findable. Then, at the same time, I had been reading Copyblogger as a total fangirl and trying things, and they were working better than I thought they could. I started to see that that limitation maybe was being promulgated by people who didn’t know what they were talking about, so I started looking around.

For every trait that you hear passed around as gospel, “A true entrepreneur must have this trait” — one of them is you have to be able to sell. Well, you really don’t, especially now. You have to be able to persuade, but there’s so many ways to do that. It’s not just about cold calling somebody and talking them into something. There’s lots of ways to persuade. Also decisiveness — that comes right out of Harvard Business School, this notion that you have to be decisive as a business owner. Right or wrong, you just have to decide on something and do it. That’s one of the reasons for so many high-profile crashes and burns with CEOs, because they lead their company right off the cliff. “I made a decision and now we’re going to do it.” Well, your decision was terrible.

The business owner with the highest market cap that I know personally, is like a squirrel who can’t cross the street. This guy changes his mind 28 times a day. It makes his people nuts. It’s not necessarily a strength, but I will tell you that no movement happens in that company that hasn’t been well thought out. He also surrounds himself with people who counterbalance that and make sure that there’s movement and drive. I’ve seen people who are not that smart make great businesses. I’ve seen people who are very introverted and really have no interest in getting themselves to get out there and glad-hand. Glad-hand is a verb only introverts use, right?

I just can’t think of a trait that everybody says, “You can’t be a business owner if you have that trait.” In most cases, I could give you two, three, four, five examples of people I know personally. I’ve become very cranky about gurus who tell you that you can’t based on their experience and based on what they’ve seen. In my experience, most of the time, if you’re willing to be creative and you’re willing to look at it in a different way and you’re going to get your head on straight — you can make something work.

Jerod Morris: There are people listening to this show right now who maybe had more of a fixed mindset before, but they’ve started listening to the Digital Entrepreneur, they’ve read stuff on Copyblogger, they’ve listened to other podcasts, consumed other content, and they’ve started to get more of that growth mindset. They’ve started to say, “All these other people are out there creating these successful businesses online or off, so certainly there’s a huge opportunity digitally.” They’re starting to get more of this growth mindset and think, “Hey, maybe I could be an entrepreneur too.” But then there’s that next step between thinking about it and talking about it and getting courses and listening to podcasts and actually going out and doing it.

The Biggest Difference Between Wantrepreneurs and Successful Entrepreneurs

Jerod Morris: Even though we’re talking about the importance of mindset and how anyone can do it, that doesn’t mean that it’s an easy or even a simple transition to make. What do you think is the biggest difference between that perpetually aspiring digital entrepreneur who has all the ideas in the world and a successful digital entrepreneur who actually goes out and will get things done?

Sonia Simone: I think it’s probably two factors. Some people will fall into one and some people will fall into the other. The most common one in my experience is everyone, you, me, Brian Clark, everyone, starts a business or starts a project — it might not even be a business, it might be a project at first — and it’s overwhelming. I think of it as a thousand-piece jigsaw puzzle. You look at it and it’s a mess. You don’t know how anything goes together. It’s a little hard to figure out where to start. The successful people, just like the successful people who can solve a jigsaw puzzle, take the easiest thing — in a jigsaw puzzle it’s the corners and the sides, the edges — they take the easiest thing that they know how to do and then they start doing it.

It’s very much a question of … Maybe they have a small habit of doing it. If you’re an okay writer or a good writer, then your easy step is “I’m going to pay somebody like $100 to install WordPress for me because it’s overwhelming to even think about that. Then I’m going to start just writing some things down as a blog. I don’t know where it’s going to go, but I’m going to just do that.”

How to Take the First Steps in Any Daunting Project, Including Launching a Business

Sonia Simone: You start in your comfort zone and you start with what you know you can do every day, a little bit every day. You don’t start with, “I’m going to spend six hours a day on my digital business. Every day between 2:00 and 8:00 in the morning I’m going to work on my digital business and then I’m going to go out and do my job.” It’s not going to happen.

Start small, start in your comfort zone, and make it a habit. People who do that start to see momentum. Momentum, by its nature, breeds more momentum. People who don’t do that, they either think too big: “I’m going to do the whole thing now. I can’t do the whole thing now.” It’s depressing. It’s hard. It starts to kick up all kinds of mindset problems. “I can’t do this. I’m too stupid. I don’t have the drive.” And they fail. That’s the first thing.

The second thing is sometimes people will stay in that space for a very long time. They’ll stay in the comfort zone. They’ll stay in the modest habit that they know how to do and they never put their little toe in the water of the thing that’s not in their comfort zone, technology, persuasion in selling, a new format, or a bigger project that requires more steps. Sometimes people will have been blogging and have been doing all the comfortable things for 2 years, 5 years, 10 years, or more than that, and say, “I never got any traction.” It’s because you stayed in the baby part of the pool. The whole point of the baby part of the pool is to get you comfortable with the water so that you can venture into a little bit deeper water and get your skills in a little bit better shape.

Those are the two things I’ve seen, and both of those can be fixed today if you just decide to do something differently today. The easiest way to start in both cases is to have a little habit. If you’re going to do something that makes you nervous, like selling, then maybe you have, “Okay, I’m going to do 10 minutes of selling practice a day. On Monday I’m going to write headlines, on Tuesday I’m going to write calls to action, and on Wednesday I’m going to read my free My Copyblogger library and come up with a persuasion technique.” You get the idea. Every day you’re going to take a little practice time to do something that don’t feel too good and feels a little weird and a little uncomfortable. That’s how you get comfortable, is practice.

Jerod Morris: Yeah, I love that metaphor of the small end of the pool getting you used to the water so you can go into the deep end, but you have to make sure that you venture out there at some point. Otherwise, you’ll just stay in the shallow end forever.

Sonia Simone: Yeah.

One Essential Habit That You Can Develop Right Now That Will Move You Forward and Get Positive Momentum Building

Jerod Morris: You kind of answered this one, but I’m wondering if we can even go a little bit more specific with it. I want folks who are listening to this to really get something to take away from this episode, something they can do literally right now, once they get off of this, or tomorrow, or as soon as possible. If you could talk to everybody who’s going to listen to your keynote right now — several months before it’s actually going to happen — and if you could inspire them to foster one habit before the conference to be a step or two ahead of the game by October, what would that be?

I know you just went through a few of them in terms of stepping outside of people’s comfort zones. And some of those will be dependent, obviously, on what a person is aspiring to do, what their background is, all of that. But is there one thing that people could start doing that would be useful to everybody that would put people a few steps ahead before the conference?

Sonia Simone: Some of you already know what your thing is going to be. Some of you are listening to this and saying, “I should do that for writing blog posts. I should do that for writing a sales page.” If you’re listening to this and you’re like, “I know exactly what to do,” set yourself a daily habit. Put a timer on your phone. If you can do it every day, that really is great. But if it could only be five minutes a day, that would be okay. If you already know, “The next thing for me to get good at is getting better at writing, or doing more writing, or learning about podcasting.” If you already know it, then just set up your timer right now. Set it up now, even if you don’t know what you’re going to fill that time with. Set up 5 minutes a day, 10 minutes a day. If you could do 20 a day, that would be awesome.

It’s totally cool to work up to it. This week you’ll do five minutes, and then next week you’re going to reset your timer setting and you’re going to do it for six minutes every single day, then seven minutes every single day. If you don’t know yet what that might be, then take either your favorite Rainmaker FM podcast — maybe you’re a big Digital Entrepreneur listener, or a big Unemployable listener, or the Copyblogger blog would be another place — read it every day or listen to it. Maybe listen to a different Rainmaker FM episode a day. You’ll get a call to action on one of those. You’ll get a tactic to try, something you can practice.

Then just do that every day. This will probably air in June. It’s only June and the event is in October, so if you’re like a ninja in eight weeks — don’t stay in the baby end of the pool. Come up with another one. “What would be one little small step a little outside my comfort zone on that? What would be a little harder?” Really, if you only spend five minutes a day in the baby pool between now and October, you’ll be amazed at how much actually happens.

Jerod Morris: It’s so important to be better now, to go do this now. We have these moments of inspiration. Someone is listening to you talk right now, Sonia, and they’re like, “Yeah, I want to start doing that.” They don’t do anything with it and three or four days later they’ve forgotten about it. Their motivation has dissipated and it’s like they’re starting back at — not necessarily square one, because they’ve listened to this so they know it intellectually, but they haven’t necessarily matched that with the emotion and with the action that will create the momentum which you talked about earlier.

It’s so important. If you’re feeling that motivation right now from listening to Sonia talk, don’t put your headphones down and say, “I’m going to do it,” and not do it. Just do something quick and small right now — whether it’s putting a to-do in your to-do list, blocking off 10 minutes on your calendar, or actually sitting down and doing something, like going and listening to an episode of Confessions of a Pink Haired Marketer for example — taking that first step. It’s so important to take that first step. Don’t wait till later to be better. Be better right now.

Sonia Simone: Yeah.

Jerod Morris: Sonia, this is wonderful. I, for one, cannot wait to hear your presentation in October. It’s going to be wonderful, as all of the presentations will be. It’s going to be a really fun conference.

Sonia Simone: I’ll give all you guys a little secret, that Jerod and I are going to be watching each other’s presentations very closely because we did both go to this event where we learned to be stronger speakers and more dynamic and to broaden the range of what we bring to our talks. Jerod and I are both looking at each other like, “Okay, game on.” We’re going to try and see how much we can implement to make these really move you to action and really make a difference in your life.

That’s what makes what we do fun. When I have people come up to me and say, “You know what? That was the thing that made me understand how it worked and I’m doing something differently now,” there’s nothing like that. I want to thank all of you. I sure hope you come and see us live, but whether you do or whether you don’t, that’s really what I want for all of you guys. It’s really what makes it worth doing for me, and I know that that’s true with Jerod as well.

Jerod Morris: Yes. If either Sonia or I start impersonating air or wind or fire, you can send a tweet to Victoria Labalme and ask her, “Why in the world are they doing this?” All right, that URL one more time is rainmaker.fm/summit. Go there and you’ll get the full description. There’s a band that’s going to be playing. We’re having a party. So you can check that out, find out who the band is. It’s going to be fantastic. You can see all of the speakers, who they all are and what they will be talking about. Check out the dates, and of course, check out the price.

Again, it’s 795 right now. That price will be going up, so depending on when you listen to this the price might have gone up already. But certainly if you listen to this soon after it’s out you can still get that early bird price. Again, go to rainmaker.fm/summit and join us in Denver. We’d love to see you, and we hope that we will see as many of you there as possible. All right, everybody. Sonia, thank you so much for being here. For the wonderful episode. We really appreciate your insight.

Sonia Simone: Thank you. I had a great time. It’s always good talking with you.

Jerod Morris: It is. Thank you for listening. We will talk to you next week on another brand new episode of the Digital Entrepreneur.

The Transcript

Does Your Social Media Strategy Need a Mindset Shift?

Voiceover: You’re listening to The Digital Entrepreneur, the show for folks who want to discover smarter ways to create and sell profitable digital goods and services. This podcast is a production of Digital Commerce Institute, the place to be for digital entrepreneurs.

DCI features an in-depth, ongoing instructional academy, plus a live education and networking summit where entrepreneurs from across the globe meet in person. For more information, go to Rainmaker.FM/DigitalCommerce.

Jerod Morris: Welcome to another episode of The Digital Entrepreneur. I am your host, Jerod Morris, the VP of marketing for Rainmaker Digital, and this is episode No. 16 of The Digital Entrepreneur. It’s a special episode because we have a special guest.

Jason Keath, the CEO of Social Fresh, is here to discuss the report that Social Fresh recently released called The Future of Social. You can get that report at SocialFresh.com/Future. We dive into a lot of the insights that Jason and his team came up with, with that report, a lot of interesting data.

The timing of this conversation, for me, is especially interesting because I am actually in the midst right now of putting together a course inside of Digital Commerce Academy called Savvy Social Advertising. The big idea with that course is to teach you, the digital entrepreneur, the 20 percent that you need to know about social media marketing, social media advertising, to derive 80 percent of the benefits.

You are out there developing your digital product, offering your digital service, and you don’t necessarily have the time, the inclination, nor the need to become a full-fledged expert on social media. You have a lot of different things that you’re doing, and that’s not the goal of this course. Again, it’s to teach you that 20 percent that you need to get 80 percent of the results.

What’s interesting about this conversation in this episode with Jason–and why I’m excited to bring it to you–is that he talks a lot about a different way to think about social media. If you’re thinking about social media simply as a way to build awareness and put people into the top of your funnel, you’re not really thinking about social media in the way that it can have the maximum benefits.

Thinking about social media from a customer-loyalty perspective, from a lead-nurturing perspective, from an education perspective, from a customer-service perspective–all of those elements social media does really well–sometimes we overlook them simply trying to build that awareness or even trying to jump right from awareness to a sale.

There are a lot of steps that can and should happen in between there, and you’ll learn about that in this conversation today. You’ll also learn much more about it and learn some really important step-by-step tactics for how to make it work for you and to save you money so that you can make more money and have a better return on your investment in social. That will all come in the course.

As I said, the timing of the conversation is interesting because I’m developing the course, but it’s also interesting from this perspective. We are currently in the midst of our price raise promotion for Digital Commerce Academy. Currently, we’re still offering our post-pilot introductory price of $395 per year for membership at Digital Commerce Academy.

The thing is, since we offered that price the first time, the value of Digital Commerce Academy has skyrocketed. Now there aren’t two full-fledged courses in there. There are four. In addition to Brian’s course on building an online training business and Chris and Tony’s course on marketing funnels, we now have Chris Lema’s course on building WordPress products the smarter way. You have my course on Savvy Social Advertising, plus the entire library of Case Study webinars we’ve done, the entire library of Cutting Edge webinars we’ve done, plus the regular coaching Q&As, which happen every other week, and all of the upcoming ongoing education, in addition to the community.

The time was right to raise the price, and we are. On Friday, May 27th, the price is going up to $595 a year. It’s still a great value, but obviously, it’s a better value at $395. You still have the opportunity to get that. This episode comes out on Thursday, May 26th, so you’ve got about 24 to 48 hours from when this comes out to when the price is going to go up.

Go to Rainmaker.FM/DCA, you can still get that post-pilot introductory price of $395 before the price goes up. Rainmaker.FM/DCA. Again, you’ll have access to my course on social advertising. Especially if today’s episode peaks your interest, then that is a course that you’ll want to get in there and start to dig into. I’m having a lot of fun putting it together, and I really am looking forward to you getting in there, checking it out, giving me your feedback, and learning from it.

Without further ado, let’s get to my discussion with Jason Keath, a really interesting discussion. You will get a lot out of this. Definitely stay around till the end because we get into video at the end. Video is one of the fastest growing content types that is really, really big in social media, and you’re going to want to hear Jason’s tips on how you can make video work for you. We talk about all of that and much, much more here on this episode of The Digital Entrepreneur.

All right, so we are joined on this episode of The Digital Entrepreneur by Jason Keath, the CEO of Social Fresh. Jason, how are you? Welcome to the show.

Jason Keath: Doing great. Excited to be on the show. Thanks for having me.

Jerod Morris: Yeah, yeah. We’re excited to have you here, and we’re excited to talk about your report. You guys just released this report, The Future of Social, and it has some really interesting insights that I want to get into.

I guess the first question is just an overview question about the report, because the report itself is based on surveys. You guys did over 500 surveys that you conducted of digital marketers whose responsibilities include social media marketing.

I’m just wondering, to put this in the proper context for our listeners, how big on average were the companies that these marketers worked for, and will the numbers in the report, and that we’re going to talk about, will those be applicable for digital entrepreneurs who may be solopreneurs or who have smaller teams?

Why The Future of Social Is Relevant Whether You’re a Solopreneur, a Small Team, or a Large Business

Jason Keath: Yeah, yeah. Social Fresh, in general, at our conferences, on our website, on our podcast, everything, we focus on what we call the ‘professional digital marketer,’ or the ‘professional social marketer.’ That’s everybody from solo entrepreneur running their own company, doing their own marketing, doing their own everything, all the way up to the largest companies in the world who attend our conferences. Everybody really gets value out of what we do because we focus on that person and the fundamentals to that responsibility.

The report was no different. We had two research partners, Firebrand Group, an agency out of New York, and Simply Measured, a pretty large social media software company who helped with the report. We also targeted people through some LinkedIn cold emails that we did, so we could get some job titles that we were targeting.

It’s a really well-rounded report. It’s got everybody from very small businesses to very large businesses and everything in-between. It’s really representative of the average of what’s going on in social media marketing.

Jerod Morris: Okay, and for folks who want to see the report, you can go to SocialFresh.com/Future and check it out. We’re going to dive in to some here on this episode. Obviously, we can’t get into everything. Definitely recommend that people go there–again, SocialFresh.com/Future–and check out the report.

The Disconnect Between How People Say They Are Using Social Media and How They Should Be Using Social Media

Jerod Morris: It’s interesting. One of the first observations this made in the report shows what seems to be a disconnect between what people think they’re using social for, what their goals are, and maybe what social is best for them. What I mean by that is, 76 percent of the people surveyed listed ‘awareness’ as one of their top social media goals, yet there were a number of experts that you guys quoted in the report who suggested that this might be a bit of a myopic focus.

What should people–or in our case digital entrepreneurs who are selling maybe an online course, a SaaS application, or premium WordPress product–what should folks be focusing on when it comes to maximizing the time and money that they’re investing in social media?

Jason Keath: Great question. Ten points for the word ‘myopic,’ if everybody’s keeping score at home. Great outline of that. Yeah, that’s right. Social media is great for scale. It’s set up for scale, and it’s set up for all these awareness metrics. You can measure reach really easily. You’ve got a list of followers that’s public. You’ve got ‘likes,’ comments, and Retweets–all these numbers that are thrown at us as vanity metrics.

Even if you’re smart enough to know you should be going after maybe customer loyalty, sales, or leads instead of focusing on awareness, your boss may not be as savvy, necessarily, and may want to really get those awareness numbers higher–those vanity metrics, those followers, et cetera.

Social media in general is still trying to overcome that kind of setup. I don’t know if we’ll ever really get past it, but on the base level, social media is best at people talking to each other. It’s really great at customer loyalty, customer service, really good at building community, really good at taking a smaller audience and making them go from like to love, taking your customers and making them really great word-of-mouth opportunities for you. Or taking your average customer and making them, giving them a longer customer life cycle, giving them upsells, giving them just a better feeling about the trust of your business.

The real low-hanging fruit in social media is that customer loyalty, is that word of mouth, and then building from there. I usually tell people to focus on three audiences in social media, and this is reflected in the report. All the expert advice we got from a lot of folks in the industry is to focus first on your customers in social media, then focus on your qualified leads. If you’re B2B, that could be actually, if you have a qualified lead program or if you’re a consumer business, it could be just focusing on the target audience that’s best for your product.

Then focus on your fans would be the third audience. Your fans can be people that have great word of mouth of your company00even if they’re not necessarily a customer or going to become a customer. They can be partners, et cetera. Those smaller audiences are much, much bigger reward for the business typically.

Jerod Morris: That’s interesting because a lot of people, when they think about social media, they think about filling up the top part of your funnel, but you’re saying think about social media as a way to interact with people across all the different levels of engagement that you have.

How to Use Social Media to ‘Take People Who Like You and Make Them Love You’

Jason Keath: Yeah, and there’s so much opportunity for social. We asked people to name their top two social media goals, and awareness was just by far the most popular mentioned. Awareness, you can do great awareness building using social, using advertising products that exist on social networks, using video.

There’s a lot of great tools in social networks and social media that can help you with building the top of the funnel. There’s nothing wrong with that, but it’s harder. It’s going to cost a little more money. It’s typically more difficult, and it’s going to cost a little bit more time.

Now, if you are good at talking to your customers, you’re good at talking to your qualified leads, and you’re good at talking to your biggest fans on social, then, yeah, build that top of the funnel. There’s nothing wrong with that. But the average social media team is very small, and the average marketer has a lot on their plate.

Typically, you’re missing the lower-hanging fruit if that’s your number one focus. If you haven’t built the bottom of your funnel to be really good–and your customer loyalty, and customer service to be really good–that’s a better opportunity for the average business.

Jerod Morris: Yeah, and there’s a great quote in the report from Jay Baer, who says, “Embrace the organic social functions more like an email newsletter, and think strategically about how you can use social to make people who like you, make them love you,” which I thought was great and what you just mentioned.

Jason Keath: Yeah, Jay’s great. His new book is about customer service, so that was a great fit for his expertise with the report.

Jerod Morris: Do you think that part of the issue comes back to the fact that people don’t really understand what their goal is? Or that, if they do have a stated goal, it’s the wrong one? They don’t understand what KPIs they should be looking for. I know there was another stat in there.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think it was around 25 percent of people didn’t even know what the return on the investment was from the time and the money that they’re investing in social. It suggests that they don’t even know what they should be tracking. Is that a big issue that folks are having who may be struggling with what they’re doing in social media?

Why Having Clear Goals and KPIs Is So Important

Jason Keath: It’s a great question. ROI, we asked folks, 63 percent said they got a positive ROI from social media, which I think is pretty high. If you’re able to say, “These activities I’m doing on Facebook, on Twitter, et cetera are directly correlating to a return on investment for my business,” that’s typically not the easiest process to implement for your business–having the measurement system in place, having the right goals in place, and tracking people along that process, along that funnel.

I thought that was a pretty good sign for the industry, but you’re right. We did have like 24 percent, I think, were not sure, and 12 percent said they were not seeing a return. We correlated that to a few things, typically a lower experience level when it came to marketing and social in general.

For instance, when we tracked people that were using social media software versus people that were not, just the fact that, if you were using social media software versus just posting natively to Facebook and Twitter and not really monitoring it, using any analytics, using software, you saw ROI 19 out of 20 people, roughly 95 percent. If you weren’t using software, it was virtually a coin flip.

There were a lot of things that really told us that the audiences that have a better system in place, a better process, are doing really well. The folks, the marketers out there that are measuring what they’re doing have an idea of what their goals are. Even if it’s the simplest process, even if it’s just Hootsuite and Bitly, two free tools, even those folks have a much higher percentage chance of seeing a good return and seeing it work for their businesses’ bottom line.

Jerod Morris: The key, then, is to be intentional about it, to be strategic about it, not just spray and pray, but actually have a plan in place for what you’re doing.

Jason Keath: Yeah, it’s shocking, right?

Jerod Morris: Yeah.

Jason Keath: Yeah, basically. We just did a discussion about it when we launched the report. @jeremarketer, the co-writer for the report, mentioned there are a lot of things that are hard to measure. There are a lot of things you can measure, and you can get really intricate with your process and your plan to see what works and what doesn’t. But just simply measuring what you can and learning from that is an initial step that some marketers don’t even take, some business owners don’t take.

Being very intentional about that and learning what data really tells you useful information and what data is more just surface and doesn’t give you as much useful information for actually making more money for your business, that, in itself, is a very important step. These stats amplify that even more.

Jerod Morris: Yeah, absolutely. It won’t surprise anybody, or at least it shouldn’t surprise anybody, that Facebook continues to dominate in terms of where people are spending their money, where people are seeing ROI. I think everybody gets that, but there were a couple of insights that I thought were really interesting that digital entrepreneurs especially need to pay attention to.

Dark Social and the Future of Social Media

Jerod Morris: Like I said, I want to ask you if this is something that a digital entrepreneur should pay attention to. You mentioned, there’s actually a heading on one of the pages that says, “Is the future in dark social?” ‘Dark social’ refers to one-on-one messaging, which can be harder to track. That’s Facebook Messenger and the direct messaging that you get on any of these platforms.

It’s clear to see how this could be a challenge, especially for bigger brands who have tons and tons of fans, and that can get kind of unwieldy to manage. But for smaller online businesses, like the kind that many digital entrepreneurs are running, is this dark social, this one-to-one messaging, is this something that they should be taking more advantage of to connect one on one with customers and even prospects?–especially as we talk about connecting with folks further down the funnel with social.

Jason Keath: Yeah, it’s a hard conversation to give businesses advice on. It’s so new, and it’s so hard to really wrap your head around both tactically and strategically. At the conference this summer–we’ll have our 18th conference in Orlando, Social Fresh 2016–we’re going to have a panel that’s going to touch on at least dark social. We’ve got the CMO of HubSpot. We’ve got some folks from Simply Measured that will probably be talking about it.

Everybody I talked to recently about the future of the industry and where it’s going–everybody that I consider to be very smart in social media–mentions this to me. ‘Social messaging’ is basically what people are calling it, so it’s basic messenger. It’s WhatsApp. It’s half of Snapchat is one-to-one or one-to-many private messaging. It’s what a lot of the Millennials and younger people are focused on.

Even today, social messaging as a platform is larger than social networking. The people that are using these apps, and the amount of content they’re sending, is more content and more people than are active on public-facing social media feeds like Facebook’s feed, Twitter’s feed, Instagram, and LinkedIn, et cetera–which, in of itself, is very important fact.

But the ways to interact with people if you have a Facebook page and you have a brick-and-mortar store, you probably see messages come on Facebook Messenger. That’s important for you to respond to. That’s something that’s very easy to recommend people pay attention to. They’re probably also getting messages or reviews on Yelp, OpenTable, things like that as well.

For the average business, there’s not really a lot of actionable advice to give today that you can directly measure. Simply Measured is actually working on a system that allows businesses to measure social messaging better, but it’s hard. We’re probably years away. I would say two to three years away at a minimum before most businesses have to worry about this.

You’re going to see a lot of untrackable traffic to your website, to your landing pages that might be coming from private Facebook groups. It might be coming from direct messages in addition to the email traffic that you get that you can’t track.

One of the biggest lessons, for me, is what we just talked about, which is investing in your customer, investing in the audiences that are going to be your word-of-mouth ambassadors, and making sure those people are taken care of. If you do that, all of this conversation that happens in private, one-to-one, one-to-many messages that you can’t track, you can’t measure, you can’t see, it’s going to be better for your business if you’re investing in the right people.

Even influence or marketing would be another layer, but just taking care of your customers which are your best ambassadors would be the best, most actionable thing that I can tell people in response to social messaging right now.

Jerod Morris: I guess there are two layers to social messaging. There’s the one-on-one messaging that’s happening between other people that you can’t see, that you have no control over, that you can’t even really interject into that conversation. Then there’s the one-on-one messaging that you’re having with potential prospects, with customers, and that’s really the only one, obviously, that you participate in.

I know you said it can be one to three years. Is there any way that folks can start to open themselves up for that? Obviously, you want to respond if someone sends you a message. Is it something where people should be making themselves available on a Facebook Messenger or Twitter Direct Message, that kind of thing?

Where You Should Be Making Yourself Available (and Why) on Social Platforms

Jason Keath: Yeah. Especially if you’re a brick and mortar or a service industry that’s local, you’re already getting questions asked directly if you’re a business. If that’s already happening, then doing response in Twitter DMs, doing response in Facebook Messenger is something you should definitely look at, especially as a customer-service response tool.

If you read Jay’s book, Hug Your Haters, he talks about messaging people up to two times publicly for customer service situations, and then taking it into a direct message, an email, or a phone call. That’s great advice and really the way most businesses should be treating those opportunities.

There’s some businesses that are using these. Facebook Messenger is a platform now with an API. You can plug your store into it. You can do automated response bots in it that are customer-service based, that are transactional based. If you’re ESPN and a media company, you can send updates about the Carolina Panthers or the Arizona Diamondbacks. You can do all kinds of things in these apps, but a lot of that is very costly on the time and the budget frontend for the average business.

If you’re ESPN, it makes sense. If you’re Jet Blue, it might make sense, but if you’re a mom and pop, an entrepreneur, or even a medium-sized business with one to 25 people doing marketing and PR, it might not be a resource play that you can handle right now because it’s so new. It’s so untested, and it would take a lot of time and effort in testing to really prove the benefit.

If you are interested in that, there are people that can do that for you. There are companies that are building that kind of thing. But for the average business, it’s something to start thinking about, to start paying attention to, but acting on it is probably a little farther away than this year or next year.

Jerod Morris: So Instagram is growing as a trend that we see continue, and you say in the report, “Instagram will officially become the second most popular social network for marketers to spend their time and money in 2016.”

The numbers, the trends, they’re clearly there. Correct me if I’m wrong, but it seems that Instagram still, at least among some groups of folks, has a perception problem of being more of a niche social media site for photographers, foodies, fashion folks, personal trainers.

I still even catch myself thinking that way sometimes. I know that’s not right. I’m just saying it’s that perception that is there. How can digital entrepreneurs who may not have an obviously visual product and who may even have this kind of bias against Instagram for that very reason tap into Instagram? Clearly it’s a place to be.

How to Approach Instagram, LinkedIn, and Twitter (and Which One Is Outpacing the Others)

Jason Keath: It’s interesting. You have a B2B bias against Instagram right now because it’s hard to get links out of the site. That’s an immediate barrier for most folks. Consumer brands probably see a lot more value in the platform, and that makes sense because of the visual nature of it.

However, if you are running an advertising campaign for, let’s say, a social media conference like we’re doing for Social Fresh, we use Facebook Ads. We use Facebook Ads because it’s got great targeting. It’s a really mature, the most mature, social advertising product, and now you can do all of those ads on Instagram as well.

We just talked about how you should focus on your customers first. When we’re building a sales funnel for our conference, we have a very targeted audience that we want to make sure knows about the date and time of our event. It is an awareness problem for us, and Instagram’s advertising product is really mature because it’s building on top of Facebook. That, in of itself, is going to have a lot of marketers paying attention.

These might be more lifestyle photos that represent your business or industry. You look at somebody like IBM or GE and the type of content that they’re creating that is almost more like a consumer brand. That’s the type of advertising and imagery that’s going to work on Instagram.

If you talk to Instagram, I’ve talked to them directly, one of the things that they’re trying to focus on, focus content on, is making it look more DIY. In other words, less polished, less like corporate commercial, and more just, “Here’s what’s going on at your office, your industry, your employees,” that is a little more entertaining and a lifestyle focus. It can be self-help. It can be solving your customers problems. Those are the directions that I would look.

That being said, if you’re B2B, the bigger opportunities are going to be on Facebook, are going to be on LinkedIn, Twitter, maybe even a SlideShare. If you do have a specific awareness challenge that Facebook’s Ad platform can help you achieve through Instagram ads, I think that’s something to test. The audience is clearly there. It’s bigger than Twitter now. It’s bigger than LinkedIn. It’s growing faster than both of them, and it has an amazing ad platform attached to it.

Just because it’s growing and just because it’s going to receive a lot more attention from social marketers in general, doesn’t necessarily mean that your business has to be there, and has to be investing in it. However, I think look at it, and look at that opportunity and see if there’s something you can test there on that platform.

Jerod Morris: You mentioned LinkedIn, and Facebook obviously dominates the paid advertising spend and the ROI as we talked about, with Twitter and Instagram coming in next in terms of where people are spending their time and their money. But surprisingly, at least to me, was LinkedIn is the one that ranked second in terms of ROI. Why do you think it is that LinkedIn, that people have been able to get a better return on LinkedIn despite it not being used as much as Instagram and Twitter?

Why Some People Get a Better ROI with LinkedIn and When LinkedIn Is a Good Choice

Jason Keath: Well, LinkedIn has been consistent. It hasn’t gone away. It’s bringing in revenue. They’re growing slowly compared to the other social networks, but they’re growing. They’ve got specific products for HR, for some sales folks, for hiring that are really powerful.

Then, when it came to our advertising question, what we saw there is we forced people to pick one. Facebook completely dominated. I think it was 75 percent of people said, “If I had to pick one, Facebook Ads are the best,” which is pretty representative of what the technology can do and the value of it.

LinkedIn was second. It was the only question we asked where LinkedIn showed up in the second spot. It was third or lower in everything else, and I think it’s because there’s a small, but significant audience of marketers, mostly B2B, and probably even mostly SaaS-software-focused audiences, or service focused, that see a good value from the LinkedIn Ad.

You can do things on LinkedIn Ads that you can’t do elsewhere, the biggest of which is targeting job titles–which can be very powerful. However, they’re a little more expensive, so most of the folks that are spending money on LinkedIn Ads that are seeing success, they typically have a larger price point and can stomach that kind of cost-per-lead price that’s going to be higher on the LinkedIn platform.

That being said, I’ve seen that success consistently from this smaller, yet significant audience that is mostly B2B companies on LinkedIn, and I don’t think that’s going away. They are improving their ad platform. They are consistently investing in it, so it’s still got a lot of opportunity for a certain type of business.

Jerod Morris: I have a question that I wrote down: if you could only focus on one network starting today, would it be Instagram, Twitter, or LinkedIn? I’m guessing based on your answers to these last few questions that it’s really going to depend, and it’s going to depend going back to your goals, going back to your budget, going back on who you’re trying to reach. Would that be an accurate guess on my part?

What Social Platform(s) You Should Be Focusing On

Jason Keath: Yeah, definitely. Instagram’s younger. LinkedIn’s older. LinkedIn’s probably better for B2B. I’d say Instagram and Twitter are better for consumer. These are all generalities. Your business mileage may vary. For us, for instance, for Social Fresh, going out to social marketers, Twitter is probably the best of those three. Although, again, we’re looking at Instagram because there’s a lot of social marketers there’s typically a majority female audience now, for us at least, for our target, and they’re more likely to be on Instagram in a lot of ways. It just depends on your specific demographic target.

Jerod Morris: Let’s turn our attention to content development here a little bit. I thought it was interesting and encouraging that you ask people where the biggest amount of their time is spent, and the biggest chunk of time was spent in content development.

Do you think that we’ve moved past this old era where content marketing and social media marketing, especially paid social media marketing, were seen as mutually exclusive? It seems, to me, that the smartest marketers realize that content and social really feed off of each other and make each other more successful.

Why Smart Social Media Advertising Has a Content-Focused Approach

Jason Keath: Yeah. At the first Social Fresh conference, which I was planning in 2008, ‘content marketing’ as a term did not exist. Nobody was using it. We were talking about social media, and there’s still people trying to debate whether it was ‘social networking’ or ‘social media’ is the term.
We talked back then about blogging. We talked about video content. We talked about creating images. All of that was what people define as content marketing in a lot of ways now. It’s a little broader, but it’s always been the same conversation.

As social networks have gotten noisier, as the competition has gotten to be louder and louder, and harder to get your message out, the focus on more quality content, on a higher-quality product when it comes to video, blog posts, images, or what not, that’s created a subsection conversation that is content marketing. I think that’s great.

For us, we’ve always discussed content and social in the same breath. Email marketing is in that conversation. It’s all digital today, and it all touches itself. It’s all hyper-connected. I don’t see them as separate discussions at all.

Jerod Morris: No, and they certainly shouldn’t be. Again, for people who are doing it right, they’re not. When it comes to content, and specifically types of content, obviously blog post content works. I think images were the one that people who responded to your survey, that they invested the most time in and that they were seeing the most success from. But the one that seems to be growing the most is video.

How can digital entrepreneurs be leveraging video more in their social media marketing? Are there suggestions that you have for creating good, quality video that will work in social media that’s not cost-prohibitive? I know that’s a big challenge for folks who want to get into video.

Why Video Is So Hot Right Now

Jason Keath: Yeah, there’s so many levels of video, and you’re right. If we look at the top three social networks, in a lot of our questions, especially where people were seeing return and where they’re investing their time and money in the future, it’s roughly Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram.

If you look at what all three of those are focused on, it’s video. Instagram and their newest release, they have an entire section tab dedicated to video. They’re stringing together videos now, similar to a Snapchat story. Facebook’s Ad platform and their feed are focused, hyper-focused on video. Twitter is also following suit and focusing on video, trying not to fall behind there.

Purely as an opportunity standpoint, your opportunity to stand out in this noisy system we’ve described and your opportunity to build the trust with your smaller audiences, your customers, your fans, video is something you have to be looking at. To build on top of that, you have Snapchat as a big trend, which has a lot of video content. You have live streaming platforms like Facebook Live, Periscope, and Blab that are video focused.

There’s a lot of opportunity to experiment. I don’t think you need to focus purely on the storyboarding, the classic TV-commercial-style video where you’re storyboarding something, you’re doing product features, you’re doing high-quality video shoots. That’s super time-intensive, and if you are a big company, maybe that’s important for you. You look at what Lowe’s Home Improvement is doing on Snapchat, where they’re building stories through short video clips or short stills, that’s more of a mixed media experience.

Snapchat’s a great platform for relearning what video can do, and using the Snapchat story product can really, if you start playing around with that, testing it, trying to build narratives where there’s a beginning, middle, and end, and a purpose to your story, that’s really video editing. That’s what video editing has been forever, and this is a much easier way to create things like that. That’s a great education point.

And just one more piece of advice. Look to live-stream platforms to get comfortable with video. Look to Periscope. Look to Blab. Look to Facebook Live to play around with it, to get comfortable in front of the camera, and to experiment with lighting, with microphones, with everything. Just minimum viable product–get something out there, play with it, learn about it, and test it.

Jerod Morris: Yeah, that’s what’s so interesting about video. It seems intimidating, yet video doesn’t need to be perfect to work. It seems like what people really want is authenticity and something useful. You can do that in a video that isn’t the highest ‘visual quality’ as long as it tells a good story. Maybe it uses text to help extenuate the visuals–as long as audio is good, which is an interesting part about video is that a lot of people judge the quality of a video by the audio quality and the lighting, of course.

What other rules of thumb do you have for people who want to dip their toes into video with Periscope or with one of those, maybe want to put it out on Facebook and even do some advertising with it? What’s the minimum that folks need to do? Any rules of thumb you have for what people need to have in those videos?

How Even Inexperienced Digital Entrepreneurs Can Leverage Video

Jason Keath: Yeah, you want to tell a story. Facebook Video Ads are great to experiment with. You can almost build a funnel with three to four videos that you try to expose the same audience to.

For our conference, for instance, we might have a 30-second spot just with highlights. Then we might have really short clips of past attendees talking about it, testimonials. Then we might have short clips of speakers from previous conferences on stage showing the product. Then we might have videos of how the conference has actually changed businesses for the better and make that kind of the hard sell at the end–and trying to get people to watch all four of those.

You can do that really easily with Facebook Ads, with Twitter Ads, with Instagram ads now. Make them short. Make the first few seconds really visually engaging because a lot of these videos are muted. The phones are muted or the computers are muted when they’re first watching them. Making them click the volume button, making them engage through a highly visual engagement–people moving around, beautiful people, smiles, action, et cetera. Making sure you have that narrative, have that purpose of your video.

We do interviews like this for our podcast. We do Blab recordings, webinars, things like that. Just taking excerpts of something like that and putting it as a video ad or something is not necessarily the most engaging, so you might have to do a little editing. You might have to do a little bit of planning, of strategy, and testing.

Another key is to test your Facebook Ads, your Instagram photos, your Twitter Ads, and things like that. Learn which visuals are hitting well, and do something that’s very similar or those exact images as your first few seconds of your video. That’s really helpful as well to get people engaged.

Then a software tip, just a really simple software tip, I use something called ScreenFlow, which is $100. I use it on my Mac. It’s as good as any editing software out there. It actually makes some things a lot easier. If you’ve never done video editing, you’re going to have a learning curve. But you have to learn it, somebody in your company has to learn it, or you have to find somebody that you can outsource it to that’s quick and can move fast with these things and learn.

Jerod Morris: Hey, when you talked about that three-, four-video sequence, like what you guys are doing for the event, obviously, you have that last video that’s more the harder sell for the event. Where are you sending people in the first few videos? If they click over, are they going over to the landing page for the event? How do you work that in as you go through the funnel?

How (and Where) You Should Work Links from Your Videos into Your Funnel

Jason Keath: A lot of these platforms, you can easily list a link. You can pop up a link at the end of almost all the videos. Typically, what we do is always have our landing page link for all of them. If you have a longer sales cycle, you may want to take people through more of an education of your product.

For us, we’re typically very narrow in our advertising targets. We’ve found ways that we can really target people that are social media marketers with our ads, so there’s not as much product education. It’s just more convincing people of the quality of what we have to offer through testimonials and excerpts, but we try to include the link all throughout.

Typically, for us, people land on our conference landing page, they’ll check out the speakers. They’ll check out the topics. They’ll realize they’re interested. They may have to go get approval. They may have to submit for budget. They’ll come back again in a couple weeks. They’ll realize they got an email from us that the price is going up in two days, and then they’ll buy it then. It’ll come back to our landing page several times, and we build the ads around that same concept.

Jerod Morris: That’s a really interesting point and a good one. It’s important to have that level of self-awareness for your product and your company, to understand what your sales cycle is. Like you said, you guys have a pretty good understanding of how you’re targeting and what your sales cycle is. You can send people directly to that sales page.

Other people who maybe do have a longer sales cycle but they send people right to the page, they bounce, and they lose that person. Whereas, maybe getting someone to opt-in, taking them through a lead-nurturing sequence might have been a better decision.

Do you find that there is sometimes, for people who struggle with social media, a disconnect between where they’re sending people, the offer they’re presenting to people, and maybe what they actually should be based on what their product is and what their sales cycle really looks like?

The ‘Commitment Curve’ and How It Helps You Build Trust

Jason Keath: Yeah, totally. I think everyone has a nurturing problem. If we all got better at understanding the 17 steps between someone knowing about your company and buying your most expensive product, it would solve all of marketing’s problems.

For me, we look at something I learned a long time ago called the ‘commitment curve,’ which is you get people to take little steps, and that builds trust between you and them. Ultimately, you try to get them to accomplish a larger step, a larger trigger, goal, et cetera. That’s typically a large purchase. This is something political campaigns do really well where they get you to sign a petition as a first step in that commitment curve.

For us, our product, it costs a decent amount of money to attend Social Fresh conference. Mostly, it’s businesses paying for that for their marketers to attend, but we get everybody. We get a really good rating on people that get value out of it and return year after year. But It’s hard to convince someone– they just learned about the company, they’ve never heard about it before–drop $1,000 or more a ticket, depending on how much they’re getting involved in the conference.

So you have to build steps in-between. Our research report is a great introduction to our company. They can spend time with that. They can hear us on podcasts like this. We also have other reports that they can purchase that are a lower price point. We have webinars and things like that, experiences that are good content marketing where they can get to know us.

You have to build those steps along the way. If you’re jumping from an introduction to trying to cram a purchase into their news feed, then it’s a much lower conversion rate for everyone.

Jerod Morris: Jason, when I’m not here hosting The Digital Entrepreneur, I’m over hosting The Showrunner, talking about podcasting, or hosting one of the other three podcasts that I do. I’m big into podcasting. In looking at the report on that list of content, I was kind of disappointed to see podcasts so low on the list of content priorities for the companies that you surveyed.

I’m just wondering your thoughts on why that was. Is that because the medium itself is still gaining traction with content consumers? The medium itself doesn’t really lend itself well to quick consumption. Or something else? Why do you think people aren’t prioritizing podcast content more? Especially when it’s proven its ability to connect so well.

The Value of Podcasts

Jason Keath: I’m a big believer in podcasting. It falls into a larger category for us that we talk about called ‘trust content,’ which is spending more time and more meaningful moments with your audience–with a smaller audience typically.

Podcasts, there’s a lot of barriers. You can’t measure it very easily. Most people are turned off by that. The biggest barrier is it’s hard. It’s hard to get a good-quality audio. It’s hard to turn out consistent content. We’re getting ready to start season two of our podcast for Social Fresh. We believe in it, but we can’t do it year round. It’s just too much of a resource drag on our small team.

But we believe in it enough that we are doing it again. When I talk to people in person, one of the number one things they mention is, “Oh yeah, we love the Social Toolkit Podcast. We love listening to that.” It’s one of the number one things people mention to me as just an ad-hoc, unrequested piece of information, so I love that.

I’d also argue that it’s not that low on the list. You’re saying it’s basically number 12 out of a list we have that’s one through 12, but we had about 20 to 25 different content that were listed for that question. It’s in the top 12.

Jerod Morris: Ah, okay.

Jason Keath: It’s seven percent of people who create podcasts at least once a month. I think it’s growing. It’s young. It’s a hard production, really draining for folks, and most folks aren’t set up to do that yet–just like video.

Jerod Morris: Good, I’m glad it was higher than I thought. That’s good.

Jason Keath: I think it’s higher than you think. Also, there’s no quick podcasting. There’s quick video with Snapchat, live streaming, and short video on Twitter and Facebook, but there’s not really any quick podcasting that does any good for anyone. That makes it a little bit more difficult.

Jerod Morris: Hey, getting back to the video real quick. What’s the ideal length of a video? Maybe that’s an impossible question to answer. It may depend. Is there a rule of thumb for how long my videos should be if I wanted to have an impact in social media?

Finding the Sweet Spot for Video Length

Jason Keath: Yeah, 43 seconds, I would say, precisely.

Jerod Morris: Oh perfect.

Jason Keath: Typically, 30 seconds to two or three minutes is what a lot of people say. I’d say keeping it between 30 and probably 100 and 120 seconds–90 seconds is a sweet spot. That really challenges you.

What you’re going to have to end up doing is taking what is in your head as a video and breaking it up, usually into two, three, or four videos. You probably have too complex of an idea of what video you want to create.

For us, it was highlight reel, testimonials, speakers on stage, examples of that, and then the last video would be simply one case study telling that hard story at the end. Think of those very simple stories you can tell with video, and then try to tell them really well in this short timeframe.

Jerod Morris: Yeah. Well, again, the report is at SocialFresh.com/Future. I really, really encourage everybody to go check that out. You can dig into some of these numbers that we’ve talked about today. Jason, obviously folks will go there, and they’ll be able to check out that report.

If there’s one element or takeaway from the report that you think all the digital entrepreneurs who are listening to this should walk away from this episode from, walk away from reading that report from, what would that be?

The Importance of Focus

Jason Keath: It’s to take a close look at what you’re doing and if you’re reaching the audience you want with the content and the social network that you’re using. There’s a lot of people that are focused on Facebook only, or they went the other direction and focused on all the social networks they can get access to.

My interesting part of the report was seeing that LinkedIn Ad performance, or seeing that there’s still people that answered Pinterest or Snapchat as an ROI answer. It was much, much smaller, but there are people getting a return out of SlideShare, out of webinars, out of podcasts. People are still listening to these things, and it’s important for every business to find their niche. You don’t have to do all of this. You shouldn’t be doing webinars, podcasts, infographics, and video on Snapchat, et cetera, et cetera.

Trim it all down. Find those niche opportunities for you that work for your business. If you’re an e-commerce fashion brand, look at Instagram. If you’re a B2B SaaS company, look at LinkedIn. Really focus on getting those right. There are so many people in these social networks now, you can focus on one and find a ton of opportunity. I think that’s a bigger trend that’s going to play out for social marketers moving forward.

Jerod Morris: Yeah, excellent advice, Jason. If you want to get more from Jason, you can follow him on Twitter @JasonKeath. Jason, thank you for your time and for your insight. This has been a lot of fun.

Jason Keath: Yeah I appreciate it, and I really, really highly encourage folks to check out our conference. If you go to SocialFresh.com/Rainmaker, we’ve just put up a temporary, for the next couple of weeks, $100 off. Check it out. We’d really love to see some Rainmaker, Copyblogger fans out there at the conference this year.

Jerod Morris: Absolutely. It’s SocialFresh.com/Rainmaker. All right, Jason, thank you, and we’ll talk to you soon.

Jason Keath: Thanks, Jerod. Appreciate it.

Jerod Morris: My thanks again to Jason Keath of Social Fresh for joining us on this episode of The Digital Entrepreneur. Again, the URL for the report is SocialFresh.com/Future. If you are interested in their conference, it is SocialFresh.com/Rainmaker. Go check that out. Their conference is in August.

How to Take Your Digital Business to the Next Level

Jerod Morris: Again, make sure today or tomorrow that you go to Rainmaker.FM/DCA. The price of Digital Commerce Academy is going up. Even if you get to this episode after Friday, May 27th, the price of one of those courses that is in there would be $495 if we sold it individually, and you’re getting four of those courses plus everything else for $595 per year. It’s an incredible deal.

We really want you to get in there, learn as much as you can so that you can take your digital business to the next level and be as successful as you can possibly be. That is the goal with The Digital Entrepreneur podcast. That is the goal of Digital Commerce Academy. We look forward to you taking advantage of it.

Again, Rainmaker.FM/DCA. If you’re listening to this on the day the episode goes out, make sure you go there to get the best price that you can get on Digital Commerce Academy.

All right, everybody, thank you very much for listening to this episode. We will be back next week with another brand-new episode of The Digital Entrepreneur. Until then, take care. We will talk to you soon.