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The Transcript

Should Online Entrepreneurs Write a Book?

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You’re listening to The Digital Entrepreneur, the show for folks who want to discover smarter ways to create and sell profitable digital goods and services. This podcast is a production of Digital Commerce Institute, the place to be for digital entrepreneurs. For more information go to Rainmaker.FM/DigitalCommerce. That’s Rainmaker.FM/DigitalCommerce.

Sean Jackson: Welcome to The Digital Entrepreneur, everyone. I am your host, Sean Jackson. I’m joined, as always, by the voracious Jessica Frick. Jessica, how the Frick are you?

Jessica Frick: I am voracious. How the Jackson are you, Sean?

Sean Jackson: I am very well. Voracious, by the way, both means appetite — like you’re super hungry — and also it means to be eager in how you approach an activity. I am referencing the latter, not the former.

Jessica Frick: Well I’m eager to do this show with you. I’ve been looking forward to this.

Sean Jackson: Oh, I know. This will be a fun show. We left the last show with our question of the week, which is: Is it worth it for an online entrepreneur to actually write a book, especially nowadays? You say …

Jessica Frick: Not really.

Sean Jackson: Okay, tell me why.

Jessica Frick: I think that it certainly could be worth your while, but I feel like there’s so much pressure on digital entrepreneurs to put a book out there, and it doesn’t have to be there. There are so many other ways you can go about it. I think that in a lot of ways, books are not as relevant as they once were. There are other opportunities to get the attention and respect. You don’t need to put all the effort into a one-time content release.

Sean Jackson: Okay, I understand the point. Basically, of all the things that you can do, a book may not be worth your time, especially given the fact that some of the production of content can lead to more tangible results more quickly than all the effort that’s required for your typical book.

Jessica Frick: Yeah, what about you? What do you think, Sean?

Sean Jackson: I think you’re completely wrong. No, to argue the other side of that — I will say you are correct in the assumption that it is a lot of effort, but most things online are a lot of effort. Either they take a lot of time to get really good at it or take time to put together. They both have a certain degree of effort. Though typically a book — be it a digital book or a printed book. In this case, let’s say it’s a printed book. Yeah, it’s a pain. All of my friends who are authors will say that it is like birthing a child — even though none of them are women, so I don’t know what they are referring to. But I like the analogy.

I do think it is huge. But here’s why it may be worth it: you can use your book to establish instant credibility and authority in the space that you write about. Seriously. It’s not like anybody’s going to read the stupid thing. You’re going to be able to sit there and say, “For this subject matter, I’m the expert because I literally wrote the book on it.”

I’ll give you an example. Rob Garner — good friend of mine who wrote the book Search and Social. It was a laborious process. His research intern actually happened to be my intern. We were sharing the same intern at the time. I know how much effort went into that book. But you know what? When Rob walks into a room now, he is the definitive authority on search and social. Why? Because that was the name of his book. Maybe it’s worth it if you’re in a space that you need that type authority. What do you say to that?

Jessica Frick: I say that your company, Rainmaker Digital, actually sold courses on how to build authority, and they didn’t require writing a book.

Sean Jackson: Okay, well, when you put it that way. That’s probably good, because Brian Clark, our CEO, has never actually written a book even though he has been hounded to do so. You may have a point there, Jess.

Jessica Frick: I am just saying, Sean. There are a lot of ways to gain authority that don’t require you write this set-in-stone piece of content. I think there are a lot of really gifted authors. Quite frankly, I wouldn’t be where I am in my career if it wasn’t for books. Somebody’s got to write them. To those of you who are out there doing that soulless task, thank you.

Sean Jackson: Speaking of today’s show, we have a very special guest, don’t we, Jess? He is a New York Times bestseller, right, Jess? What else is he? He’s a …

Jessica Frick: He is a consultant. He is a speaker. He is an entrepreneur. He has written a number of books, and I cannot wait to hear what he thinks about this.

Sean Jackson: On our show today we have the most delightful Chris Brogan, who started in his book career with Trust Agents, a New York Times, USA Today, Wall Street Journal — and pretty much every other bestseller list out there he was on. He’s going to be joining us to talk to Jessica and I about why you should or should not write a book, what book publishing is really like, and the essential things you need to know if you’re going to go down that path. Stay tuned, and after this break we’ll have Chris Brogan on the show.

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Welcome back from the break, everyone. Jessica, will you please introduce the infamous Chris Brogan?

Jessica Frick: Today we have an American author, journalist, marketing consultant, and speaker who has spoken for many of our events. He is an all-around amazing guy. We have Chris Brogan.

Sean Jackson: Chris, welcome to the show.

Chris Brogan: Hey, I am so grateful to be here and thrilled to talk to both of you beautiful people once again.

Jessica Frick: We are so happy to have you, Chris. As I mentioned before we started talking, Sean and I have been having a discussion about whether you need to write a book. My question for you is: Do digital entrepreneurs really need to write a book, for real?

Chris Brogan: No. I think the digital entrepreneur …

Sean Jackson: Well, that takes care of it. We’re done.

Chris Brogan: Okay, so let’s get to the next topic, motorcycles. Who thinks they’re neat? Who’s never had one? Me. The thing about a book … First off, I always wanted to be an author. I was five years old and I was like, “I am so going to be an author.” I figured I’d just write comic books for my life, and that didn’t quite work out. But then I started blogging.

Why You Should, or Should Not, Publish a Book

Chris Brogan: The reason I started blogging way back in 1998 was because I was submitting fiction stories to magazines and stuff like that — not paying any attention to what they really wanted, like, “Well, clearly you should publish this. I wrote it.” They weren’t taking them, which was weird, seeing as the stories had nothing to do with the magazines that I was trying to send them to.

I finally got fed up and I said, “I’ll make my own website and do my own damn thing.” Then I got semi-famous in blogging. Somewhere way back in ’08, when I’m at the pinnacle of my hype of, “Oh my gosh, Chris Brogan’s an amazing blogger,” I’m at a conference and I am asked if I want to write a book. I was really flippant. I was like, “Why would I bother doing that? That seems like a lot of work.” It was my whole life’s dream to have been a published author, and the first time I get the deal I’m like, “I don’t think I want to do this.”

To shorten the story up a lot, I take the deal, I call my friend Julien Smith and I say, “Hey, you want to write a book with me?” He was like, “Okay.” Literally that’s how the call went. So we wrote a book together. By weird circumstance it became a New York Times bestseller as well as a Wall Street Journal bestseller, USA Today, Inc. — all these other places. I was like, “Oh, I’m pretty good at this.”

Julien and I wrote another book and it didn’t do as well. Then I’ve written seven more books since. Now it’s a disease. But the first-ever book did incredible things for my career. Did I need it to have a career? No, not at all. To answer your question as longly as I could — that’s a Trump word — the answer is you sure don’t need a book to have a career but it doesn’t hurt.

Sean Jackson: Yeah, let’s talk about that. I’ve had several friends of ours who have written books, right? Rob Garner, Eric Enge, Stephan Spencer, etc. All of them, they talk about the challenges of it, etc., but at the end of the day … This is what I call it: it’s the $15 business card. It is the thing that, when you walk into any room, you put that book down and you suddenly become the expert, the authority, the person who knows end-all be-all about whatever subject you just wrote about. Would you concur with that? Is that what helped in your career, giving you enhanced authority, or did it just open up brand new avenues of people who had no idea who Chris Brogan was to begin with?

Chris Brogan: That’s what I thought at first. I thought, “Well, clearly I must know something, I’ve got a book.” Some people ride that wave a lot more than other people. Some people really stick to the credentials of having published a book as if that’s why they have a voice in the fight or whatever. Now, I’ll tell you that with Trust Agents, it got into the hands of lots of people who didn’t know who I was. I’ve heard, absolutely, face-to-face with CEOs of very large companies — I don’t want to name names because I don’t want to malign people, but they would say things to me like, “Well, you must be pretty smart because this is a New York Times bestseller.”

Sean Jackson: Right.

Chris Brogan: There’s no correlation in that sentence. One is bestseller, not smartest author. My best books — because I don’t think Trust Agents was my best book — my best books sold the least. I can tell you that there’s really no correlation to me. That said, once you’re a New York Times bestselling author … A lot of people are Amazon bestselling authors. I could do that in a day. I could make one of my old books a bestseller if I work hard enough at it for a day. Once you’re a bestseller with the New York Times, that label’s there forever, and you can lord that over other people.

Beyond that, there’s not a lot of grand value unless you’re in some particular industry that really cares. Tech industries tend to care a little bit more. If you’re the guy who literally wrote the book on Java or JavaScript or something, you’d certainly probably carry a little more weight with me than some schmuck hacking around. I’m a big fan of meritocracy, so I don’t necessarily find that he or she who has published wins because they actually had the discipline to write a book. I just think that they’re the people who saw a project through. That’s the only credit I’ll give them, is that it’s hard to publish.

Sean Jackson: Right. Let’s talk about that a little bit. It’s funny, I talked to Brian Clark … When I first met Brian Clark back in 2008, 2009 he’s like, “Why haven’t you written a book yet?” Guy Kawasaki had been writing quite a bit by that time period, and that was where the evolution of a lot of the early influential marketing bloggers were moving towards, was starting to publish to gain that additional authority, if you will, by having a physical copy that is really a manifestation of what they’d been writing for years on their blog about.

Talk a little bit about what is that initial process? You obviously saw a benefit in doing it, and I do think there is a benefit — whether it’s to gain authority or to increase the exposure of your thinking to new people that may not be consumers of what you currently write. I do think those are tangible, actual benefits, but you pay a price to get them. That price is to get a book done. If you were doing this from day one back with Trust Agents, what would you do different? How would you start? Knowing that our audience who’s listening are going, “Gosh, I’m so scared about doing this. Where should I start first and what should I be doing?”

What Publishers Really Look for in Selecting an Author

Chris Brogan: There’s a Groucho Marx quote that I repeat it so often it’s almost my quote by now. Groucho said, “I would never want to belong to a club that would have me.” The day that Julien and I made the New York Times bestseller list we called each other. I say, “Hey, that’s cool,” and he goes, “Yeah, that’s pretty cool.” That was our voice too. I was like, “Hey, that’s cool.” He was like, “Yeah, that was cool. Hey, so what else are you doing?” That was it. Believe me, there’s days when I’m feeling miserable about myself that I cry into my vodka and I say, “I’m a New York Times bestseller.” Beyond that …

Let’s just say it’s day zero and we’re going to write a book. The things that I didn’t know about the book publishing industry that everyone who isn’t in there still doesn’t know is this: Number one, people publish books because the books sell, not because the idea is good. Craptons of authors tell me, “I think I’ve got this amazing idea for a book.”

By the way, almost 90 percent of the time when someone says that to me, the answer is “No, it’s not a really good idea.” It’s a horrendous idea for a book, or it’s a book that someone else wrote, and this person who’s telling me this isn’t a reader so they don’t know this. I can quote seven books that have a similar title or whatever. That’s one problem. If you’re not into books and you’re not into the book world and you’re thinking of writing a book, you’re already at a huge disadvantage, you boob. Number two, what book publishers want is sales, and they need you to guarantee some amount of sales. 96 percent of business books sell less than 5,000 copies.

Sean Jackson: Oh, wow.

Chris Brogan: That’s a startling number. Then again, you’ve got to understand, the American Department of Labor statistics said that — Americans anyway — read an average of 19 minutes a day total. Not 19 minutes a day on your paper book, 19 minutes a day total, including texts, tweets, Facebook posts, and all that. You who love books are already a dying breed. You thinking about writing a book are saying, “I think I’m going to write a book that no one’s going to read.”

I get sent about 12 books a day. Sorry, 12 books a week. That would be horrible if I got 12 a day. I get sent about 12 a week, which is still quite a lot. I can tell you that 60 to 70 percent of them I never crack the cover — even if they’re friends of mine. I’m just looking at it going, “This looks like work.” I’ll just read books that I think look awesome. So there’s that.

I’ve just dissuaded you twice. I’ve said that books are made for if the idea sells, not if the idea’s good. You’ve really got to sell a great book. What book publishers look for is your platform. If you don’t have a massive Twitter following, Facebook following, Instagram, or YouTube — if you don’t have a massive “x” following, you’re already at a disadvantage and they’re probably not going to say yes to giving you a book. Or they’re going to make you write something that you don’t want to write. Or they’re going to make you partner up with two or three of your other schlub friends until the numbers look like the kind of numbers that they think are going to help you market your book.

There are no marketing teams inside of book publishers dying to sell your book. They’re all working for Stephen King and those kinds of people. You basically get a court-appointed marketer, and they’re awful. I have never ever worked with book marketers — except for my friend Peter at Wiley, Peter Knox — except for Peter and his team. Every other team I’ve ever worked with in book publishing as marketers are the worst humans alive. I don’t understand how they call themselves marketers. As far as I understand they’re just good at talking on conference calls. They don’t actually do anything.

Sean Jackson: Right.

Chris Brogan: You’ve got to be the 100 percent marketing master. By the way, when you have a new book out, it’s like you’ve just joined Avon and you’re dying to have enough people to have lipstick parties and no one wants to go to your lipstick party.

The minute you start talking about how hyped you are for your book and you start putting up stupid infographics with your stupid quotes from your stupid book, your friends hate you and they’ve already unfollowed you. They haven’t unfriended you so you don’t know it, but they’re not reading your sh*t anymore. They’re sick of you already and they hope you die with your book in your … By the way, should you self-publish, which is highly recommended in a lot of ways, you’re going to die with your garage full of books you bought.

There’s a lot of negative, obviously, in my sentiments here, but there’s a reason. It’s because we glamorize books and we glamorize authors and all that. Listen, I’m working on my tenth mainstream book. I’m in the throes of writing the book right now. I want you to think, “This guy has a disease,” not “He’s that awesome.” Further, if you’re going to write a book, what you have to spend your time doing is writing the book. Not thinking about writing the book. Not talking about writing the book. Not researching a lot. Not buying all the book-in-the-box courses you could ever fit into. Type, because that’s how books get written.

Jessica Frick: That actually brings up … I have a follow-up for that. I’m going to show my fangirl for a minute, this is so embarrassing. Chris, one of my favorite things that you ever wrote was It’s Not About the Tights, which was digital-only.

Chris Brogan: Yes.

Jessica Frick: Why do you even need to worry about paper if it’s just going to fill your garage?

Chris Brogan: Yeah, I don’t know that you do. I printed a couple dozen of those myself on CreateSpace, just so I could hand them out to people. Seth Godin once said a very long time ago — and everything Seth says is true — Seth Godin said that books are like the perfect souvenir for the event. You have this moment where you meet an author or you see a speech or something like that, and you’re like, “Oh, it was great,” and you want to bring the book home. I have a very limited number of It’s Not About the Tights books that I have handed out to people for that reason. “Man, you’re going to dig this.”

Of my books, on the average, 96 percent of them sold in a digital space. And a great portion of those sold as digital copies. So you’re right, you don’t have to worry about the paper. But I can tell you that the strategic value of having some printed books is that should one want to get speaking and consulting gigs, having a physical copy means someone will actually read it. There’s a lot of people like this fiancée I have named Jacqueline, who buys a lot of books that she knows what the titles look like and she knows the covers, and they’ve never been opened.

Why the Real Money in Publishing is Not Publishing a Book

Sean Jackson: That was something else about writing your books, though. It did open up more speaking opportunities, paid speaking gigs, and big conferences. Correct me if I’m wrong, but you’ve been paid to go to big companies to speak internally to them.

Chris Brogan: Yeah. For Trust Agents alone, the book itself, publisher company royalties … Julien and I probably made about $30,000 each on it since 2009.

Sean Jackson: Wow.

Chris Brogan: No one’s buying a Lamborghini on that. For my consulting — back when that book came out in 2009, for the three years right after that I probably brought in a million or so. Closer to $2 million dollars total in revenue — not salary, let’s not be crazy. Closer to $2 million dollars in consulting, speaking — doing all kinds of stuff that was directly linked to that book being out in the world.

Sean Jackson: Yeah, I think that’s something too. As an online entrepreneur, obviously you’re inhabiting a lot of the online space. You’re there, you’re engaged with it, you’re understanding it. The book does provide almost a transit to more of the offline world because of the speaking engagements. But it demands you to show up. Trust me, if you sucked as a speaker — which you don’t — but if you did, you would do it one time and people are going to be like, “This guy’s a snooze-fest.” So given your personality type, it was a good transitory step from the book to speaking to consulting to having more engaged conversation in the offline world while you mastered, of course, the online world as you did.

Chris Brogan: Yeah. Sometimes the book got me to some strange places. I was on the Dr. Phil Show. Lots of people get on the Dr. Phil Show who don’t have a book, like Cash Me Outside girl, but there’s plenty of us schmoes that show up there as the “expert,” and quite often they’re authors or whatever.

The same thing, though: that fact that someone could be a decent author in no way guarantees that they’re an awesome speaker. I’ve been on speaking tours where five or six authors — sometimes 100+ authors are all on the speaking tour, and we are so different from each other. Some of us love the stage. I am a would-be David Lee Roth on the stage. Others are like Morrissey, just trying to get away and hide in the corner as best they can.

Sean Jackson: What’s the challenge? Seriously. You said, and I agree with this, “Sometimes you just have to shut up and write.” You got to get into it. How much research do you put in prior to it? Everyone has the inspiration to do it, and that inspiration can consume them for years if not decades. But at some point they will say, “I have the time. I’m going to commit the time. I am going to write.” At the same token, how much pre-research should you be doing?

You’re correct, the title and the idea matters the most. But there’s also the format of it. Is it going to be more informational? A lot of books on our space tend to be very informational. Even though I love The Art of SEO, you’re not reading it cover to cover, you’re popping into certain sections. There’s other authors like Adam Grant, who’s one of my favorites, who really have that Malcolm Gladwell-esque type of tone. All of them had to do some research on both the idea that they were trying to promulgate as well as the tone and format. How much time did you spend on that, or would you recommend spending on that prior to just shutting up and writing?

Chris Brogan: Quick side note. I messaged Adam Grant the other day and I was like, “Hey, your new book with Sandberg just showed up on my desk here. What the hell? Didn’t you just write Originals? This isn’t like you.” He wrote back and he was like, “Man, I know. I don’t know what I was thinking. I’ll never do it that close together again. It was just the perfect opportunity. It fell in my lap. I had to do it.” I said, “Hey, want to go on my podcast?” He’s like, “No.” I was like, “Okay,” and we’re friends.

What I loved about it was that he was who he is, you know what I mean? He’s really honest and really straightforward. He goes, “Yeah, it’d just be overexposure at this point. I just don’t want to do it.” I’m like, “Awesome,” but I loved that so much more. So many people do niceties for each other — and believe me, I wanted him to come on. I wanted to ask him a bunch of the same dumb questions he’s been asked. But I love that he said no. It makes me like him so much more. Almost like when you ask a pretty girl out and she says no.

Sean Jackson: He’s my favorite author, by the way. I communicate with him on LinkedIn and I frickin’ … Both that and Give and Take — both those books changed my life. I love that guy.

Chris Brogan: We spoke together in an event a couple years ago. He’s super sweet and lovely in person as well. He’s exactly the way you want him to be.

Sean Jackson: Awesome.

The #1 Rule You Must Follow to Successfully Write a Book

Chris Brogan: Just so you know. Research and stuff like that. This is a funny topic because I have a weird habit of when I write my books I don’t really research anything. I just write my books. I just write ideas. I say, “Well, you know one thing I think would be kind of cool,” and then I go on that for a while. It’s one way to write books. Trust Agents — Julien and I wrote a whole bunch of stories about people that we thought were interesting and concepts that we thought were cool, but we didn’t really do a ton of research, per se. We just told stories that we knew.

In The Impact Equation — we created this impact equation and we talked about stuff that we thought would make sense to that. There wasn’t a great deal of research, it was more like construction. Then other books that I wrote … Google+ for Business — there was a little bit of research of course, because it’s a technical platform. Strangely, that was one of my better-selling books for a platform that no one ever talks about anymore. I even got a lot of speeches for that one.

Then some of my other books … I wrote one about entrepreneurship and I did zero research, I just wrote the book. This time, my fiancée Jack said, “You’ve got to research and stuff like that. You’ve got to do some stuff you don’t normally do. You’ve got to go interview people. Get out of your Chris Brogan-ness a little bit and knock on some doors and see what people are doing.” She goes, “I love you and I think you’re a great writer.” Because she’s my fiancée, she has to say that. She said, “A lot of your ideas are still your ideas. It would be neat to actually bounce them off some real humans a bit first and see what they think, so that you can react to that ahead of time in the book instead of whatever.”

So I’ve been doing this weird thing, interviewing — I don’t remember his title. He’s the super big-ass head of digital media and marketing inside of Marriott International. Guys like that, like big CMO and CEO-type roles. That’s been fun. I’ve never done that for one of my books, and I’ve really enjoyed it. Lord knows how it all is going to play out.

This is such a long answer, but to say how much should you research or not depends what you’re making. If you’re making a really techie book, you probably have to research a lot. If you’re making some book that has health claims in it, you’re going to have to research a lot. But the real answer is you can start writing even while you’re researching.

There’s a couple different ways to write a book. I am the absolute strangest way. I start on page one and then I end at whatever the ending page is. I don’t write the way a lot of people do, which is mish-mosh all over the place. You could start wherever you want to start. Just start collecting pages, so to speak, and then use your editing phase to put that stuff all together. That’s what most normal humans do.

That’s why I say get going right now. If someone’s listening to this — which I feel bad for you because I’ve been rambling — but if someone’s listening to Sean, and sometimes Jessica and me, I would say, “You poor soul. Shut up, shut off the recording, and go write a damn page.” When I’m writing a book I write between 2,500 and 4,000 words a day across all

Sean Jackson: Geez.

Chris Brogan: So in the book I’ll guarantee myself 2,500 words a day. Most people average around 300 words a day. I’m saying get good or ****. And start putting words in, because if you don’t, you’re never going to have a book. I meet tens of thousands of people a year that tell me they’re thinking about writing a book, and then I meet a few hundred authors a year.

Sean Jackson: Chris, this has absolutely been fantastic advice, seriously, dude. You speak the truth because you live the truth, and I can’t thank you enough for sharing the truth with us and our audience. Jess, do you have any parting questions for our good friend here before we conclude this segment?

Jessica Frick: Chris, if people want to follow up with you, where would they find you?

Chris Brogan: I try to make that as easy as humanly possible. If you Google “Chris” I’m usually right after Chris Brown, so there you go. If not, ChrisBrogan.com. You can send an email. The thing I always tell people, too, is just grab my newsletter. The reason I say that is because then you can just hit reply any day of the week and talk to me right through my newsletter, any day. I’m always responsive. Always happy to help.

Sean Jackson: ChrisBrogan.com, everyone. Chris, thank you again for being on the show. We will be right back after this short break.

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Welcome back from the break, everyone. It’s that time of the show where we give our recommendations for the week. Jess, what are you recommending our audience try?

Jessica Frick: For digital entrepreneurs — if you’re an author or not — you need to be organized. Whether it’s for your business as a whole or your side projects and your business, I recommend Trello. We use Trello at PushFire. I know Rainmaker Digital uses it. It is an easy way to organize any project that you may have — whether it be in a specific timeline or just in general — until you get it done. I’m completely addicted to finishing projects in Trello. They make it so much fun to drag a cart over. Check them out at Trello.com.

Sean Jackson: Yeah, the nice thing is that they have a teams aspect too, so you can bring in other people to it. I am going to make a bold prediction on the show, folks. Here’s my recommendation. I’m not getting paid for it. There’s no affiliate link. I could care less whether you actually do what I’m about to tell you or not. But here’s what I think is going to change … I think it’s something so big, it’s going to be as big as the iPhone was to mobile telephones. Are you ready?

Jessica Frick: Oh my god, Sean. With a lead-in like that, come on.

Sean Jackson: It is Amazon Echo Show and it is coming out this summer. It is basically the Amazon Alexa device — you know that speaker that you talk to and everything?

Jessica Frick: Yeah.

Sean Jackson: It’s coming out this summer with an interactive screen. I think that is going to change the entire way a whole group of people interact with the technology. Let me explain why, folks. You can pre-order it now, so if you get a chance, go pre-order the thing. It’s the Amazon Echo Show or Amazon Show or Echo Show — I’m still not 100 percent on the brand name.

Here’s why I think it’s going to change the world. It has a video camera built into there. You can basically talk to the device and say, “Echo, call Jessica,” and it’ll bring up a video conferencing instantly if Jess has a device in her home. It also will show … “Hey, how do you make this XYZ recipe?” I know AllRecipes is working on a skill for the device so that you can say, “How do I make chicken tetrazzini?” and it will show you a video of how to make it. And you can pause it with your voice.

If you’ve ever used an iPhone or an iPad in the kitchen — which, by the way, mine looks like crap because I do all the time — you’re going to want one. Not only in the kitchen, but then, all of a sudden, when you’re getting ready in the morning you’re going to want one in your bathroom so you can watch the news or talk to it or see what’s happening. You probably will have one in your car. I think the technology — and it may not be the Amazon product per se, but it is the idea of that interactive voice video for $230, which is its pricing coming out the gate. That low cost combined with that much capability is really going to change the way that we interact with technology for decades to come. Bold prediction?

Jessica Frick: Super bold, but I think you’re onto something. I don’t know. You were telling me text messaging was going to take off years ago and I thought you were insane. I’ve learned not to just write you off as some crazy future seeker.

Sean Jackson: Well, I gave a big thing because I really want people to check this out. I really want you to think about what a world would look like with that. Our time is coming to an end, and we need to leave it with the question of the week. Jessica, you ready?

Jessica Frick: I’m ready.

Sean Jackson: What we’d like to discuss next time is the following: What is the biggest mistake online entrepreneurs make? What do you say, Jess?

Jessica Frick: You know I’m going to say it’s operations. They’re not designing the business for success.

Sean Jackson: Okay. Well, you can’t have success unless you do the marketing of the product or service correctly. I’m going to take the other side, which is the marketing product side. What do you think, folks? We’ll let you ponder it over the week, and Jessica and I will debate it like we always do on the next episode of The Digital Entrepreneur. Have a great week, everyone.

Jessica Frick: Thanks for listening.

The Transcript

A Different Way To Think About Your Online Competition

Voiceover: Rainmaker FM.

You are listening to The Digital Entrepreneur. The show for folks who want to discover smarter ways to create and sell profitable digital goods and services. This podcast is a production of Digital Commerce Institute, the place to be for digital entrepreneurs. For more information go to Rainmaker.FM/DigitalCommerce. That’s Rainmaker.FM/DigitalCommerce.

Sean Jackson: Welcome to The Digital Entrepreneur, everyone. I am your host, Sean Jackson. I’m joined, as always, by the eclectic Jessica Frick. Jessica, how the Frick are you today?

Jessica Frick: I am eclectic, Sean. How the Jackson are you?

Sean Jackson: Very good. I got a new thesaurus, so I’m going to try new names.

Jessica Frick: Oh boy.

Sean Jackson: Oh boy.

Jessica Frick: Oh boy, it’s on now.

Sean Jackson: We left last week’s episode with the question of the week, which is this: How much is too much competitive research? Obviously you’re going to do some of it if you’re an online entrepreneur, but how much is too much? Jess, what do you say? Should you do a lot of it, a little of it, or none at all? What do you say?

Jessica Frick: I think you need to do a lot of it. Obviously you can’t focus all of your attention on it, but I don’t think you should ever really take your eye off of the game.

Sean Jackson: Yeah, I understand that. But here’s the thing though — if you’re a small business guy or gal, your time is probably the most valuable asset that you have, and you never have enough of it. There’s only 24 hours in the day, that’s it. If you are spending too much time worrying or looking at what other people do, don’t you think there’s a tendency to start to morph into meeting what your competition is doing and not trying to concentrate on your unique proposition by yourself?

Jessica Frick: Well, I can see how being untainted with your view of your product could certainly help you be unique. But if you don’t know what’s in the market and perhaps what’s failed or why, or what the market even is asking for, how could you possibly know whether a) you’re unique, and b) whether you’ve really got something you want to put your weight behind?

A New Way of Thinking About Competition

Sean Jackson: Yeah. Maybe it’s a matter of semantics. Competitive research, to me, implies this concept of, “I have a competitor out there. I’m going to be watching them diligently and I’m going to be meeting them step by step by step.” As opposed to — and I’ll throw out a new idea — alternative research. We have alternative facts. If we have alternative facts, we can have alternative research, right?

Jessica Frick: Oh boy. Oh Jeez. Okay, so what is alternative research, Sean?

Sean Jackson: Alternative research is this concept of, “What are the alternatives to my product or service that are available out there?” Not, “Who is my competition?” per se, but, “What are the alternatives that I’m competing against?” Maybe people are using a very simple Excel spreadsheet to do their job. That’s an alternative to what you’re doing, that’s not a competitor. You’re not going to compete against Microsoft, for goodness sakes, but it is an alternative to what is out there.

So maybe, as part of your normal work week, thinking about what are the alternatives that people are turning to, and then looking at that as a way to understand your audience better. While at the same time realizing that those alternatives have competing factors that you may be able to address. What do you think of that?

Jessica Frick: I think that’s really smart. I think the message here is, “Don’t try to keep up with the Jones’, but know why you’re better than the Jones’.”

Sean Jackson: Don’t ignore them either. That’s right. I think that comes down to it. I look at competitive research, and I’ve seen companies that have actually gotten so fixated on it that they’re trying to match feature for feature, or they’re trying to play … They get pulled off of their messaging and start to morph into their competition’s messaging, which pretty much makes them indifferent — not indifferent, what is it?

Jessica Frick: Yeah.

Sean Jackson: Non-differential in the marketplace.

Jessica Frick: Yep. Master of none.

Sean Jackson: Yeah, exactly. So I think there’s a balance. But I do think you are correct. You need to be keenly aware of the ecosystem. What is happening there? What is going on? What are people looking at doing? That could be a direct competitor — a product or service that is literally targeting you — or it could be, “Hey, people are figuring out some other way to accomplish what they want.” That’s the alternative that they are using. Knowing that may make your product better if you can make that alternative not so attractive.

Jessica Frick: I think that — what you just said — is airtight. I got nothing.

Sean Jackson: Oh wow. I finally got one right? Oh my gosh, Jess. It only took us so many episodes for me to be right about something. Holy cow! I feel so special.

Jessica Frick: Yeah. Nailed it.

Sean Jackson: So, now that I’ve won one, Jess. Let’s do this. Let’s talk about who we have on the show today. Because we have a very special guest coming up in the next segment.
Who is that, Jess?

Jessica Frick: We have Jon Henshaw from Raven Tools and now TapClicks.

Sean Jackson: Exactly, and Jon, I think, understands this idea of competitive research. He created up a product that was a leader in its space. Where many people came in and copied him, etc. He has gone through the trials and tribulations of being the only person, to having tons of people — what that did to his business, where it led him, and what he learned from it.

When we get back from the break, Jess and I are going to be interviewing Jon Henshaw from Raven Tools — a very close friend of ours — about how he thought — and thinks — about competitive research in the technology space. You won’t want to miss this, so stay tuned.

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Sean Jackson: Welcome back from the break, everyone. Jessica, we have on today’s show, a good friend to both of us, actually, our good buddy, Jon Henshaw. Will you please introduce Jon Henshaw, The Awesome One, to our amazing audience?

Jessica Frick: The Awesome One, and of course the All-American water polo player.

Sean Jackson: Oh, good one.

Jessica Frick: I know, but I do have a much better intro. Jon is the director of digital marketing and product evangelist for TapClicks and Raven Tools. Big news there, TapClicks and Raven Tools. He is the co-founder of Raven Internet Marketing Tools, an online marketing management and reporting platform that was recently acquired by TapClicks. He has lived all over the world, and is most certainly a subject-matter expert and one heck of an awesome guy. Jon Henshaw.

Jon Henshaw: Awww. That’s the greatest intro I think I’ve ever had. I want you to introduce me as “The Awesome One” to my kids. I want to see how they react.

Sean Jackson: More importantly, to his wife actually. She wouldn’t even know who that is.

Jon Henshaw: Right. She’d be like, “What? Who are you and why are you saying that?”

Sean Jackson: Hey, Jon, thank you. Thank you for being on the show, man. Really appreciate it.

Jon Henshaw: Thanks for having me.

Why Being One of the First in a Market Can Be a Challenge

Sean Jackson: So let’s get into this, Jon. Your story is fascinating to me, insofar as what you did with Raven. I got into SEO back around 2006ish, 2007, and Raven was at all of these SEO conferences that I kept attending. It was great because Raven was the only person there with a suite of tools that were designed for the SEO space at the time. Your story is fairly interesting. While you were the first ones, you weren’t the only one. Tell us a little bit about how that was — to be one of the first out of the gate — and the metamorphosis that occurred over the years.

Jon Henshaw: Well, it’s interesting, because being first out of the gate is both a blessing and a curse. It’s the type of thing where you’re definitely getting attention for what you’re doing, because you essentially were in a position of innovating. If nobody’s done it before, you’re basically innovating. You are creating something that nobody has yet.

At the same time, when you’re the first person doing it, it’s not exactly the best. It’s just the best we had at the time. When we first launched it, it was not good, and people told us. We actually took it into a private beta after that. The reason why was because we had some big agencies both in the U.S. and the UK. They saw what we were doing. They needed it, and they didn’t want to build it themselves because it was complex, what we were doing. They were basically like, “If you will work with us, we will help you in what we need,” as far as … We had a few problems we still weren’t solving for them, so they worked with us to help them solve those problems.

After about six to nine months, we re-launched it and that ended up being successful. That’s even a good piece of information for anybody trying to enter a space and to do something where maybe there isn’t a solution there yet. That is, you’re going to get the best product when you work really closely with the people who need that product. That was really what set us on a good foot and made us, I would say, successful — particularly for the first several years.

Sean Jackson: Right. I think that’s an interesting part and a good story. You were coming into the SEO space when it still had a big black hat or black box mystique around it. It was this very unique art form, etc. You were one of the first people to put all of these tools into a suite that people could use to manage their online marketing, specifically in the search marketing space. But there was a downside to all this, Jon. Because you were the first one, you had to focus and make it better. Then you released it out there and everybody starts saying, “Wow. Raven Tools, Raven Tools, Raven Tools,” But then something happened along the way, which is …

Jon Henshaw: Competition.

Sean Jackson: Exactly. Which is the whole point of today’s show.

Jon Henshaw: Was I supposed to answer that?

Sean Jackson: Yes, you were. You did. That had to drive you crazy. Here you are, small guys in Tennessee coming out with this tool, and everyone’s finally raving about Raven Tools. You got it working, and then every day it seems like there’s somebody new. Talk about that.

Jon Henshaw: Well, it was interesting at first. When it’s such a small field of players everybody knows about each other. Back then, we would really know about our competitors because there weren’t that many people to look for or look at. On top of that, if you’re very competitive, like I am, you’re always going, “What are they doing?” and trying to second guess what their next move’s going to be. “What do they mean by that particular blog or press release?” That type of thing. You drive yourself crazy.

That is okay, particularly when it’s a small field and everybody’s innovating, because it keeps you innovating at a very quick pace. The same is true for them. What you do, then they’ll do, and then the other person will do something. But I would say, as the market matures in that area and you start to get more people, it’s not really sustainable. As you start to expand what you do …

In other words, if you’re constantly innovating, then you’re most likely making new tools and new features, then another tool, and then a new feature — which was generally the case with us and especially those early competitors. Then you get to a point where you can’t live like that. I think for us, we started to want to make our own path and have our own vision. I remember where we started with SEO. I had this vision of, “Oh, I want to be more than SEO now,” There was a whole, “We could go way down this path, and we can do social and we could do paid,” that type of thing. The other people we were competing with earlier on started to go down another path, and that seemed like a really good idea at the time.

It seemed like that would help us remain competitive and make us unique and different, but something along the way happened that I didn’t see coming — some of this is from lack of experience — that was the bigger you want to get and the more that you want to do, it opens up opportunities for new competitors to come in and take a piece of your pie. What I saw that started to happen was — there were people who would go, “You know what? That’s a really awesome tool that they’re doing over there. I see they’re making money off of that. We’d like to make some money off that too.”

Sean Jackson: Yeah.

Jon Henshaw: I think the very first one where people started coming in was with the rank tracking. Nobody was doing it. We were one of the very first people — we may have been the first person, or first company to do a web SaaS-based model of rank tracking. I think before us there was WebCEO, but that was all desktop-based. You ran it off your computer.

I think we were one of the first ones to actually, back then, do the scraping and then get the data as a web service. A lot of people started seeing that and entering that space. Before you knew it — I would look around and it was, “There are five companies doing this now, there are 10 companies, there are 20 companies.” It was insane. It seemed like practically every week there would be a new company that’s like, “We do rank tracking. We do it better than Raven. We do it better than — ” maybe some other competitor that started to become more well known. It gets kind of crazy.

Of course, we’re off trying to do all these different things. I guess what happened was … They have an advantage that you don’t have if you start building your product more diverse, bigger, and with more tools than maybe it needs to have, and that is that they are focusing on that one thing to try and make that better than you. That’s their core focus and that’s their only focus. It is easy to not be able to compete as well as you go forward if you’re focused on too many things.

Sean Jackson: Right.

Jon Henshaw: It’s easy for them to actually come in and take market share if they’re only focused on that one thing. So that was something that we definitely experienced around at least the ranking and a few other areas that we added to our platform.

How to Respond to Knock-off Products

Sean Jackson: But how do you handle this? What is the recommendation that you have to handle this going forward? Here you are, you’re creating up something new in a space. You’re getting attention. You start to make some money. You decide that you can do so much more and you start branching off. All these people come, chipping away. How do you handle that? How do you recommend people look at that? Inevitably, if you have any type of success online, this model will be something that happens to you. How do you recommend people should handle this?

Jon Henshaw: I can tell you how we did handle it, but I’m not sure that’s the right way to handle it. A lot of it depends on your resources. I think the trouble we got into was that I in particular had a very ambitious vision for what I wanted the product to be, but at the same time my business partners and I wanted to remain bootstrapped. We were prideful and liked the ability to retain control and make decisions on our own and to not have to be able to deal with a demand from a banker or something like that. We liked that level of control, yet we wanted to build this gigantic thing. Looking back on it, that’s really hard to pull off. I think very few people pull it off.

If we had gone originally the VC route and we actually had a lot of money and we could spend it on a lot of resources, I think it may have worked out a lot better than I thought it would have — or did, that is. In that case it might work out. But if you’re asking me, “What have I learned?” Looking back, I would not have tried to build so many different things — especially tools and resources — that were very different from each other.

The reason why is because a lot of the things that we were known for early on ended up being chipped away and taken, from those other companies who were only focusing on those core tools. Whereas we were trying to do all these other things. I would even say that is what led us to why people use Raven today the most, and why we were even of interest to TapClicks to acquire us, which is, at the end of the day we were able to sustain the best link management and link building tool out there.

We had it at the time, but we had people like BuzzStream come along and because they were micro — just totally focused on it — they were able to just innovate and make a better version of that than what we had originally done. What we were able to do is the reporting. Because we had become so diverse and made tools all around this, it enabled us to connect to a ton of data connections, so we evolved into a marketing report platform almost unbeknownst to us. Originally it was all about management tools and outreach, that type of thing. When it was all said and done, we ended up becoming more of this analysis and reporting tool set. We allowed these other people to come in and grab market share on the smaller areas.

Sean Jackson: Gotcha. Let’s talk about how you factor in the competitive side for our audience to think about it. In other words, you were doing a lot of innovation, but it wasn’t necessarily driven in response to your competition. It was more driven into the view that you had in this world. “I want to achieve this. I want to create this. I have the resources to do it, hence I’m going to go do it.”

But when you started to see that competition, how did you respond to it? There is a psychological aspect when you saw some people that were innovating on tools that you had literally created up and were basically drawing away. What would you suggest our audience think about that? How to respond to that competition, if you will?

Jon Henshaw: You obsess over it. If you are a person who it’s your company and it’s your thing, or you’re the product person, it’s really difficult to not obsess over it. So you definitely obsess over it. If anybody out there is like, “Yeah, I obsess over it,” then you’re normal. If you’re not obsessing over it, you’re not normal. You should probably be doing something else.

So you obsess over it, but the most practical way to approach it is don’t freak out, just look at what is it they’re doing that you can do and what is it that they’re not doing that you could do. That’s generally how I would approach it. I would go, “Okay, that’s really cool, what you did. I don’t like it because that’ll probably appeal to my prospective customer, but now let me think of what’s the thing that I can usurp that with? What is the thing that I think is next? What is something that is current that I think would be incredibly useful to our customers and potential customers. Something that would be very marketable.” That’s what we would do.

That would be my advice to anybody out there if they’re sitting there like, “Okay, here’s my product. I already have my road map. I’m happy with where we’re going, but now this competitor over here has come in and they’ve released this really cool feature and I don’t have that.” Then I think the approach is basically, “One, can you add that and can you do it quickly? Then two, can you make it better?” Then the third part being, “Is there something they don’t even have that’s not even related to that, that if you added would make you look even better than them?” That’s generally how we’ve approached it in the past and that is how I approach things today.

The Best Way to Make Sure Your Online Efforts Don’t Get Derailed

Jessica Frick: Obviously you’re a data guy, big into analysis. Is analysis paralysis even real for digital entrepreneurs? Can you go too far? And if you do, how do you know that you’re there?

Jon Henshaw: As far as data goes, data’s important to me, but I’m more interested in the result of that data. I want to know, “What did you find?” A lot of times people can get stuck in looking at the data constantly, even thinking, “I don’t have enough data.” The truth is that you’re never going to have enough data.

The other problem with obsessing over data is that you can never come to conclusions sometimes. In other words, we did a bunch of research around different areas, and when we looked at it we were like, “I have no conclusion. I’m not even sure what to do here. The data’s all over the place.” It’s so difficult to get to that. So instead of getting mired down in data — especially if that data doesn’t have a clear direction or solution — what we would do in those situations is … Just talk to your customers.

It’s literally almost from a UX perspective. How they do those type of interviews and things. Talk to your existing customers. Talk to the people who are loyal to you. Talk to the people who will be honest with you. Talk to the people who have left, if they will give you the time of day. Find out what it is that was keeping them there, why they were drawn toward it, why they left, or why they went to that competitor.

That’s the type of research that, I think, ends up giving you the most insights. Especially when it’s person to person, not some survey. Literally spending time with them on the phone or in real life and getting an idea of what’s really going on there. Then as you start to collect that — you don’t have to interview 100 people or 1,000 people. Typically, in the past for us, once we’ve talked to about 10 or 15 people we had a pretty good idea of what was going on around a certain area.

From there you can use both data and your gut to make better product decisions and maybe pivot or change some of your roadmap to take care of some of the issues that you found after talking with them. Those things will present themselves. They’ll start to become obvious. I think the problem that people get into is when they stay at one of those extremes, meaning that you’re almost always going to make bad decisions and get in trouble if you are only following your gut, and you’re almost always going to miss something or go the wrong direction if you’re only looking at data.

To find that happy medium, to not do things based on a giant committee but have a couple decision-makers … “You guys make the decision and just do it.” It’s either going to work or it’s not. That combination of: get enough data that’s actual hard data, that’s quantitative, but then get that qualitative part. Then you just have to make a decision from there and hope it’s the right decision.

Sean Jackson: Jon, I want to follow up on that. I’m going to tell you, as someone listening to this, I would be thinking, “This is all great information, except for what you just said.” Which I 100 percent agree with, which is, “Talk to the customer.” Literally talk to the customer. But here’s something that can happen. The customer, especially if they are someone who switched to the competition, may call your baby ugly. Not your physical baby, but the baby that you put blood, sweat, and tears in. Months and years of building up and seeing your competitors attack.

Talking to someone who’s left … How do you get over that? There’s no question that Raven Tools — the passion and soul that you and Scott brought to this was huge. You can see it manifested in the product. And then to talk to someone who’s left you has got to be gut wrenching. Someone who you’re talking to and they may not even get it. Or they may be paying you, but they’re not really happy about it, they just were told to do it. How do you get over that psychology of having someone tell you the truth?

Jon Henshaw: By me not talking to them. That’s really what it comes down to, seriously. The amount of confirmation bias that I bring to something — I don’t think I’ve ever done a survey where my bias wasn’t all over it based on either what I wanted the answer to be or what I was interested in. Probably the only way to go about doing this is to make sure that a founder — or somebody who’s a stakeholder in the sense of stock and financial interest and that type of thing — is not doing the actual asking, is not doing the interviewing.

You always want to try to find somebody who has the least stake into it, in that sense, to be the person who does the interviewing, who does the questioning, or that works with the data. That’s your best chance of it not being tainted. If you’re a co-founder, or if you’re somebody who’s in that decision-making place and you still can’t deal with that data, well you have your own personal problems. You’re going to have to deal with that yourself.

In other words, part of being a leader and making good decisions is that you can handle things that you don’t like and information you don’t like, and you can make good decisions based on that. The best decisions we’ve ever made with a product have always been either having a third party or somebody who is truly impartial do the questioning and gathering that information, running the analysis and creating those insights, and then presenting that to us so we can make good decisions.

Sean Jackson: You know what, Jon? I loved how you ended this interview, and I think you’re 100 percent spot on.

Jon Henshaw: Wait, it’s over?

Sean Jackson: Yes. I cannot thank you enough for being on our show today and truly sharing both your insight — which was a hard learn, to put it mildly, over many years. Again, congratulations on your new role with TapClick. We truly appreciate you and everything you do for us.

Jon Henshaw: Thank you, and I have to say — you said it earlier, but both of you are wonderful friends. I’ve known you for a long time, and I really look forward to seeing you soon, hopefully at State of Search or something like that.

Sean Jackson: There we go. Jon Henshaw, everybody. We’re going to be right back after this short break.

Hey, everyone, this is Sean Jackson, the host of The Digital Entrepreneur. I want to ask you a simple question. What is your business framework for selling digital goods online? Now, if the question perplexes you, don’t worry, you’re not alone. Most people don’t realize that the most successful digital entrepreneurs have a framework, or a general process for creating and selling their digital goods in the online space.

One of the best free resources is Digital Commerce Academy. Digital Commerce Academy combines online learning with case studies and webinars created by people who make a living selling digital goods online. The best part is that this material is free when you register. Are you interested in joining? Well I’ll make it easy for you. If you’re listening to this show on your phone and are in the continental United States, I want you to send a text message to 313131 with the keyword “DIGITS”. When you send the text message, we will send you a link to the registration form right to your phone.

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So if you want to start building or improving your framework for selling digital goods online, then please send a text to 313131 with the keyword “DIGITS”, or send us an email at Digits@Rainmaker.FM, you won’t be disappointed.

Welcome back from the break, everyone. It’s the time of the show where we give our recommendations for the week. Jess, let me guess what you’re going to say. I think you, being the nice sweet person that you are, are probably going to say that people should be looking at …

Jessica Frick: What’s your guess?

Sean Jackson: Um … Raven Tools?

Jessica Frick: Yes, that is my tool to recommend. When I worked with Rainmaker I used Raven all the time. Now that I’m working with PushFire, obviously we are huge fans of Raven Tools and also TapClicks. The difference here — I think for those who are listening to this show, you’re probably not enterprise level just yet. You may be running an agency, in which case TapClicks is a fantastic option for you and your client reporting. If you need just the essentials — bringing everything together, helping you do a comprehensive overview of everything that you should be knowing as far as the digital landscape is concerned with your business — Raven Tools has what you need.

Sean Jackson: This is not a sales pitch. This is a recommendation. I would concur with your recommendation, but not in such a sales-y way. Mine is actually something that Jon told us that he likes to use. When he’s doing competitive research he actually likes to use SimilarWeb, which is kind of interesting. It is a service site I hadn’t really learned or heard a lot about. He’s definitely a big fan of SimilarWeb. I’ve used it. It’s a good way to get sites and categories in some sort of order and listing. Then on the SEO side, they use — at Raven Tools — all of the different SEO services out there. Right, Jess? They are very comprehensive in what they do.

Jessica Frick: Absolutely.

Sean Jackson: The one that he tends to turn to though is Majestic. Even though Moz is fantastic, Ahrefs, etc. All of them have their strengths and weaknesses. Majestic has been a tool, from the SEO perspective — looking at the backlink structure, looking at some of the SEO details that are somewhat technical, to be fair. He tends to lean towards Majestic.

So that’ll be my recommendation. Using SimilarWeb to look at sites and categories and rankings they’re in, and then, of course, conversely looking at Majestic for the SEO aspect of your site at a fairly detailed level. You’ve used Majestic. It’s a phenomenal tool, like all of them, but it can be very detailed, which is why Raven makes it so nice. At the same token, those are the two that I recommend. We’ve got Raven, TapClicks, SimilarWeb and, of course, Majestic as our recommendations of the week. Jess, ready for the question that we want to leave everyone pondering as we conclude this episode?

Jessica Frick: I’m ready.

Sean Jackson: Should you, as a digital entrepreneur, write a book?

Jessica Frick: No.

Sean Jackson: No? What?

Jessica Frick: You can, but you don’t need to.

Sean Jackson: Ah. Well, that’s a good point. Maybe you don’t need to.

Jessica Frick: I feel like everybody’s saying, “You have to.” I’m going to guess you’re going to say you do.

Sean Jackson: Well of course I’m going to say you do. I think if you’re going to be in the online space and if you really want to stand out … You remember how we were talking about how weird do you need to be or how unique and remarkable you need to be? I think a book puts a big value on there. I call it the $15 business card. Trust me, you go into any meeting and you put that down — no one’s going to read the thing — boy, you become an instant authority just because you have a paperback volume with your name on it.

Jessica Frick: I think we should discuss this more at length.

Sean Jackson: I think it is deserving of a deeper conversation, which we will do on the next episode of The Digital Entrepreneur. Everyone, have a great week.

Jessica Frick: Thanks for listening.

The Transcript

How to Recruit the Best Talent for Your Online Business

Voiceover: Rainmaker FM.

You’re listening to The Digital Entrepreneur, the show for folks who want to discover smarter ways to create and sell profitable digital goods and services.

This podcast is a production of Digital Commerce Institute, the place to be for digital entrepreneurs. For more information, go to Rainmaker.FM/DigitalCommerce.

Sean Jackson: Welcome to The Digital Entrepreneur everyone. I’m your host, Sean Jackson, and I’m joined as always by the illuminating Jessica Frick. Jessica, how are you today?

Jessica Frick: I’m illuminated, Sean. How the Jackson are you?

Sean Jackson: I am well, as always. We left the last episode with the question of the week, which I think is perfect when thinking of you.

How weird is too weird when it comes to standing out, when it comes to your unique selling proposition, and when it comes to really crafting that special mojo that is you and your organization?

Jess, what do you say? How weird is too weird?

How Unique You Have to Be to Stand Out

Jessica Frick: I think you can be as weird as you want to be. But I think there’s certain levels of weird that are appropriate for certain situations. I mean, you don’t want to let your full freak flag fly in a client pitch.

Sean Jackson: Right.

Jessica Frick: You know, just maybe a little freak. Wear something a little weird, or maybe make a joke that somebody would have to catch.

But when it comes to recruiting, you can be super weird. I think that that would actually help you find an employee or a staffer that might not otherwise come. Just because they resonate with you, and they’re like, “Oh, my God. They get me.”

Sean Jackson: I think you’re right. I think you can be unique.

And being unique means being yourself on your best day, but truly being yourself. Not trying to be something that you are not.

I mean, if you looked at me — me dying my hair pink does not go with my persona, okay? It just doesn’t.

Jessica Frick: No.

Sean Jackson: I would stand out, to be certain. But there would definitely be a disconnect, and I wouldn’t be able to carry it off. And so I do think you’re right.

I think you do have to be unique and different and really something that is memorable and remarkable. I think you don’t want to be boring. You do want to stand out, but you don’t have to be something that you are not.

And I think it goes to the core set of values that you believe in yourself and the people that you want to attract. The people that you want around you — be it the audience that you’re trying to build online, be it the customers that you’re trying to sell to, or being, as you pointed out, the employees or the contractors inside your organization, right?

Jessica Frick: Absolutely. If you just disappear into the background, you’re going to just be part of the background noise. And if you’re selling an ebook or if you’re creating a new membership organization, the more people feel at home with you, the more they’re able to trust you.

Sean Jackson: Yeah, and they look forward to seeing you.

I mean, let’s face it: There’s a lot of boring people out there. The more that you can infuse your work with the unique characteristics of what you do and what makes you special — and really clearly articulate it. That’s what I really think it comes down to, is that you have to really know what it is about you and what you stand for and clearly articulate it so that it becomes a compelling part of your messaging.

Because it is okay to discriminate against people who are not sharing in the values that you share when you’re trying to build an organization. If you have certain values and you are clear about articulating them, there will be others that will be derisive of those values, that will be dismissive of it, and may not find any value in it. And you know what, Jess? That’s okay.

Jessica Frick: It is. I think though a lot of people don’t necessarily need permission to get weird. But I think that there’s a lot of us who were perhaps freaky kids, getting called out weirdo in the playground. And it was a bad thing then.

But now it’s an asset. And it takes some guts to make those first steps and be more you than who you think they want you to be. Little by little, you can get as weird as you want to be.

Sean Jackson: There you go.

I think this really comes to a head when we start talking about building up an organization. That by identifying, articulating, and really understanding what makes it unique about the organization you’re creating, which really centers on the solopreneur to start with and then expands and grows from those they bring around. It’s very important from the onset to understand those unique qualities to attract the right people, and that’s a little bit about what today’s show is.

We do have a very special guest on who is going to talk to us about how to create up that right type of organization. Be it a standard office or be a remote workforce, how to articulate that culture, how to attract the new type of talent that is out there, that is very discerning in the type of jobs they are looking for. And really understanding that, by being better at understanding yourself, it may not only save you money in the long run but actually help facilitate your growth.

Jessica Frick: Yes.

Sean Jackson: I know.

When we get back from this break, we will be talking to Kathryn Minshew, the author of The New Rules of Work, about how you can build an organization that attracts the best people. Stay tuned.

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Welcome back from the break, everyone. Jessica, it is time for our interview this week. Whom do we have?

Jessica Frick: This week we have a very special guest, Kathryn Minshew. She is the CEO and founder of the TheMuse.com, which is a career platform used by 50-plus million millennials to find a job, learn professional skills, or advance in their career, and by hundreds of companies looking to hire or grow their employer brand.

Kathryn is also a Wall Street Journal and Harvard Business Review contributor. She’s spoken at MIT and Harvard, appeared on Today and CNN, and she’s been named to SmartCEO’s Future 50 and Inc.’s 35 Under 35.

Most importantly, of recent news Kathryn is co-author of the forthcoming book The New Rules of Work: The Modern Playbook to Navigating Your Career. We’re very excited to have her today. Kathryn, thank you so much for joining us.

Kathryn Minshew: Absolutely. Thank you for having me. I’m really excited to be here.

Sean Jackson: Kathryn, I want to get into this because I figure I’m going to take a giant leap here, okay? I think you’re probably an expert in career management as well as helping companies figure out how to attract the right people. Would you say that’s a true statement?

Kathryn Minshew: I think it’s fair enough, but it is definitely an unintentional expertise. I like to joke that I started this business because I needed the advice, and I’ve ended up gaining so much more than I ever expected.

Sean Jackson: See? It helps when you’ve been there, right?

Kathryn Minshew: Exactly.

Sean Jackson: Let’s get into this a little bit.

The Muse, by the way, is a beautiful site. Congratulations to you on your success and obviously the valuable information you have there.

Given who our audience is, I want to talk a little bit about where you are seeing the trend now for people in the workplace. Because obviously our audience are the people that do the hiring. But I think, before you can hire anyone, you need to know what is that pool of talent out there. What are they expecting, and what are they looking for?

So talk to us a little bit about the modern worker today and the person that’s looking to manage their career.

Why Younger Workers Are More Discriminating in the Jobs They Pursue

Kathryn Minshew: Absolutely. One of the big things that has differentiated The Muse and I think our community is that the people that we cater to are often thinking about work in a fundamentally different way from perhaps 10, 20 years ago. And there’s a number of differences, but just a couple at the high level.

One is that candidates are becoming more like consumers. So it’s no longer enough for a company to post up a job description and say, “Walk right this way, come through my interview process, and maybe at the end I’ll tell you if you get an offer.”

Instead, candidates are taking more power and they’re saying, “Well, why this job? Why this company? What is it that will happen to me if I join you? What will I learn? Who will I work with? What will my day-to-day be like?”

They’re becoming much more informed and discerning consumers, and companies are reacting to that by changing their entire recruiting process. The investment in employer brand, the candidate experience that someone has as they’re going through your application interview process. All of that.

Secondly, the types of things that people are looking for, as I mentioned, it’s less about the sort of flashy perks or simply just, “Oh, you have a job? I want a job.” That is definitely going the way of the dinosaur.

We’re seeing a lot of people focus on the people, purpose, and path. So “Who will I be working with?” The purpose being the overall goal, mission of the company. “What is the point? What is the ultimate reason we’re all here together?”

And then path is opportunities for growth and development. This has never been more important, because career paths are less linear. And so as individuals realize they need to develop skills that will take them where they want to go in their career, they’re looking to employers to say, “What experiences that will help me develop those skills can you provide, and how will you help me grow?”

Sean Jackson: So it really comes down to the fact that people who are looking for a job now are not just looking for a job. They’re looking for something a lot more.

They’re becoming, I would say, much more discerning about the opportunities that they would like to pursue. Would you say that’s an accurate statement?

Kathryn Minshew: Exactly. It’s completely true, and it’s changing the entire way that employers are thinking about attracting those people.

Sean Jackson: Got you. Let’s talk about that a little bit.

Because, obviously, if you have a supply of people out there that are much more discerning, that are much more discriminating — looking for the 3 Ps, as you mentioned out there. How as either a solopreneur looking to scale up or an established business, where maybe I’m doing a lot of my work with people who are not necessarily in an office, how should I be thinking about company culture and trying to appeal to this more discriminating audience out there?

Why Corporate Culture Is More Than Just a Slogan and Is Essential in Finding the Right People

Kathryn Minshew: I think the first mistake that a lot of people make is thinking that there’s some sort of generic best culture or attractive culture that exists that they should emulate. Instead, the most successful people figure out what it is that they already have to offer.

So, what’s authentic to the opportunity, to their business. Whether it’s a one-person solo shop looking for a number two or someone else to help out or a much larger and more established business.

There’s a lot of ways to do this, but one thing that I find really helpful is, if you are in a position where you already have existing employees, you can actually get some of your best recruiting content by asking them, “What made you take this job? What drew you to this opportunity?” You can gather and sort of capture some really interesting content about what already brings people to your open roles from the people who’ve done it.

Frankly, if you’re a solo entrepreneur or you’re looking for your first, second, third person and you’re very small, that’s an opportunity in and of itself. There are people out there who are specifically drawn to and excited by that sort of thing, and so I would put that front and center when you’re recruiting.

I’d say first you have to figure out what is it that sets you apart. What are those unique identifiers that might make someone say, “Yeah, that’s what I want to do.” Then secondly you’ve got to make sure you get those in front of the right people. Whether that’s making sure they’re on your career site, if you’re at the stage where you have a career site, making sure that your existing employees or your network is sort of informed and empowered to be able to spread the word.

And then the simple job description. I think the days when you can just post Looking for a sales person or a software engineer and get a bunch of great people in the door, those days are numbered. And the best job descriptions have a section, not just what do I want from this candidate or what are the qualifications, but also what we can offer you. Why would you want this role?

It’s incredible, this sort of uptick you can see in applications and then conversion from people who look at your job description to actually apply when you write the right things and you really think about the person reading it as you’re creating that.

Sean Jackson: Of course, there’s a value when you do this as a company or a solopreneur, because it forces you to really think about the people that would fit well with you.

I think that’s the other side of it, that too often businesses that are growing especially are like, “We just need bodies in the door. If they can spell their name properly and, you know, I can check off on the resume the things that I think are important, bring them in.”

I think that does a disservice as the company and organization grows, because you’re not sitting there putting in the right mix of people into the organization.

Kathryn Minshew: Exactly. Everyone who’s worked on a team knows the impact of having somebody who’s just the wrong person for that team.

Now, it doesn’t mean they’re not a great person. They may be wonderful. Frankly, they can be very difficult. It’s more about the fit and do their preferred ways of working, their priorities, their core values as a professional align with what the company or the team needs. I think that’s so important for people to keep in mind when they’re hiring.

It’s interesting, because one of the most popular exercises in the book, in The New Rules of Work, is from the candidate’s perspective. It’s helping people look at their career values, essentially, and we have a long list in the book.

Someone who’s seeking creativity, flexibility, autonomy — they’re going to be looking for very different opportunities. And, frankly, a very different employee motivated in very different ways, from someone who might be seeking stability, compensation, the ability to move up in a very predictable fashion, prestige.

There are a lot of different work values. And so for an individual candidate, there’s a lot of utility in understanding what really motivates you at the end of the day. For a company, I think it can be so helpful to make sure that when you’re bringing somebody in, that their values are aligned with what you can provide.

Because, frankly, if you bring someone in under I don’t want to say false pretenses, but I think everyone’s familiar with that situation where a company sort of oversells itself and what it’s offering. That’s not going to end up well for anybody. Best case, you’ll have someone who leaves after a short period of time. Worst case, you could have someone who’s a long-term part of your team but ultimately is a bit toxic.

Sean Jackson: That’s important that you go into this. And it’s kind of funny, because to me it sounds like marketing your company to the people that are going to help you build your company. And do those things that we as online marketers would normally do both to attract an audience but also to attract an audience of potential employees.

That to me makes a ton of sense, because every organization is different. And the better way that you articulate that, the more clearly you articulate that, the better the results will be both in building the customer base as well as building the employee base. It’s generally the same type of rules.

I want to go in though, because one of the things when you were talking about all this, what kept on coming into my mind was the fact that the better that you can clearly articulate the core values, unique proposition, the type of person that would fit with your organization — there is a monetary side to that.

Correct if I’m wrong, but sometimes I would take less pay to be with the right organization. Where pay, sometimes where I get it in the extreme, is only to compensate for the fact that I don’t really want to work there, but they’re going to pay me so much to be there.

So talk a little bit about the role of paying and the whole salary side when it comes to these very discerning potential employees.

Kathryn Minshew: Absolutely. You’re spot on. The business impact is real. And I can give you a million examples, but just two that come to mind.

The first is, as you said, in how much you have to pay people to join the team. There’s a great statistic, and I don’t have it on hand right now, but it’s something like the average person would accept 19% lower salary to join a company that they were really excited about or where they felt like it was a good fit, compared to a company that did not have an employer brand or a positive association that resonated with them.

Right then and there, that’s been shown now by data. I would say it’s very true, in my personal experience. And we have over 600 companies on The Muse. We hear it from them as well.

When you find someone who is excited … For them, first of all, it’s more about joining a tribe or a community and being part of what you do and less about, “Well, this other opportunity is paying me $15,000 more, so thanks so much. Sorry.”

On the attraction front, it certainly has a business impact in terms of whether you can attract great people at sort of a normal market rate or, frankly, if you’re a growing company, sometimes even below market, versus whether you really have to overpay to convince people to come. That’s sort of number one.

Second is retention. I cannot tell you how many times I have seen this, where somebody, a great employee, will get that offer from a big business. I’ve heard recently about a situation that happened a couple of weeks ago. It’s a star employee. They had a friend in their network reach out and ultimately made that person an offer for I think it was something like $100,000 more in base salary.

It was a massive difference. Of course, this person thought about it and agonized, because that is a major lifestyle change. The original company could go up by a tiny amount, but not even close to that jump. And ultimately the person decided to stay, and part of that was that they believed in the culture, the experience, the place that they were.

I think that for leaders, it’s funny to me, and I don’t want to be … I’ll try and keep this really nice, but leaders have always been saying, “Oh, our people. The people are the most important thing.” But when you look at people’s actions, in fact, they often don’t act in a way that indicates that their people are the most important thing. And yet how does anything get done in your organization? It’s your employees, your team.

The more that you can both invest in those people, treat them well, but also, again, as we were talking about, making sure that you have something unique to offer and that you’re really being thoughtful about the employee experience. I believe that’s going to be more and more critical to both attracting but also keeping great people. Because information asymmetry is going away, and those great people are going to find somewhere that does value them if they’re not valued at your business.

Sean Jackson: Let’s talk a little bit. Being the finance guy, I love the financial side of the employee equation and especially nonfinancial incentives.

So I am here, I’m trying to grow my business. I am looking and following the advice that you give about really articulating what makes us unique, what really drives us to attract people who are inspired and want to join that tribe, if you will. But part of it is going to be pay. The other part are going to be the incentives that I put in to both retain and to encourage. Both, there’s financial and nonfinancial.

Let’s talk a little bit about that as I’m crafting up my package. Because I’ve got a great story, I’ve clearly articulated it. I’ve got a pay that may or may not be above market. But that’s not the only thing in the equation.

What is it that as an organization I need to start thinking about as far as incentives, as part of this discussion with potential hires, as well as current people I’ve got in my shop already?

Tips and Tactics You Can Use Right Now to Improve Your Online Recruiting Efforts

Kathryn Minshew: Exactly. I think this is a great point, because when people think about attracting — as you said, there’s a lot of incentives and a lot of benefits and things that employees are looking for. Some of them are financial, but a lot of them are not.

I will say, I’m going to go through a couple of different examples. Not every example is right for every company. And this goes back to figuring out your specific, unique value proposition essentially, for lack of better words, as an employer. So don’t feel like you’ve got to do all of these.

For example, some organizations have been incredibly successful in investing in things like flexible working hours, the ability to work from home, bringing children into the office. We actually have a baby-at-work policy at The Muse for infants that are under six months old that’s been very successful. And that’s been tremendous in terms of both people with small children feeling welcome and feeling excited about the company, but also, I think, we’ve seen retention benefits across the board.

We also see that there are companies that will take a strong focus on investing and learning and growth. I was talking about this earlier, but that there are ways to do this that both have a financial and a nonfinancial impact. Financially, obviously, companies that can provide formal training, that can send their employees to conferences or other external learning opportunities. That’s obviously a huge draw for a lot of people that are thinking about building skills and experiences in their career.

Nonfinancially, I think there are also some really interesting opportunities. Whether it’s giving people the chance to rotate into a different department, pick up a new skill, work with someone that’s in a different field or different part of the business to, again, see more about what they do. These sorts of things can be really big draws for people, and I think that it pays to be creative.

I’ll give another quick example. When The Muse was very small, we didn’t have a lot of budget for anything. In fact, the business now is over 130 full-time employees. But the first two years, we were three, and then five, and then seven, and grew very slowly.

But a couple of things we did that people have since told me really made the difference: One was I really got to know what motivated each person and did my best to provide that. Now, you can’t do that as easily at a hundred people, but you can at three, at five, at seven. And it’s incredible.

I’ll give you a silly example, but one of our early team members, our kind of lead marketer, was just a huge basketball fan. I happened, two months after I learned that, to get an invite to an event where I think Allen Iverson was speaking and I couldn’t go. And so I reached out and I said, “Can I send somebody from my team?” And I sent Elliott, and it was this huge, exciting thing for him. And I think he appreciated that I remembered.

We also would, because we were very small, we would approach conferences and say, “We can’t afford to pay your ticket price, but can we do X, Y, Z or promote you on our social channels in advance and send somebody for free?” A lot of conferences would say yes, and so we were able to get professional development opportunities for the team without investing a huge amount of money.

I can talk more. I think it’s really useful for people to think about all of the additional incentives. But whether it’s professional development and growth, is it flexibility and work life integration, is it upgraded software and tools and the type of things they’ll be using in their day-to-day?

People are motivated in very diverse ways and, frankly, that’s a great thing for the world. But as an employer, and especially as someone who’s leading a small team, you have a unique opportunity to really understand people on an individual level and then help give them the thing that’s going to most specifically motivate and excite them. And I think that it’s very, very powerful.

Sean Jackson: I want to end our conversation, because if you’ve ever read The Fountainhead by Ayn Rand, it was interesting how the protagonist in the story went from running their own shop, to going back to work, to again coming through the trials and tribulations in the story.

And I think a lot of online entrepreneurs at some point will see failure, and it’s sad but it’s true. Talk to us a little bit about, “Look, I’ve been running my own online shop for a while, okay? And it’s not going as well, or I may need to augment my income by getting a permanent job.”

Talk to us a little bit about coming back from that solopreneur world and re-entering the marketplace. Of course, in Silicon Valley, you see this all the time. I would do my startup, and when it doesn’t work, somebody go gets a job.

Talk to us a little bit about re-entering the workforce from that solopreneur or very, very small business environment.

Kathryn Minshew: Firstly, I think from a mindset perspective, the most successful people are ones that realized they have developed some incredibly valuable skills as a solopreneur. And that going back into a more traditional workforce doesn’t necessarily mean that they are sort of giving up on that path.

In fact, it’s an opportunity to see how another business does things. Polish the types of skills that you would get at a larger organization versus a small one, and ultimately go back if you want into being a solo entrepreneur in the future, armed with more. I think looking at it that way can be really helpful.

Secondly, I think that there’s no rule book that says you have to go get a job doing what you were doing before you were a solo entrepreneur. And sometimes people think that, because they’re like, “Well, this is what I’m qualified to do.”

But one of the things about The New Rules of Work — and this is a premise that TheMuse.com is built on and that the book is honestly built on as well — is that your career is determined by the skills you have and whether you can adequately convey those to new people. It’s not necessarily a line of experience or a degree or a credential.

I think this is incredible news for solo entrepreneurs, because you tend to have picked up a tremendous number of skills in what you do day in and day out. And so this is where I think writing out a cover letter … I mean, actually before that even, a statement: What is it that you do well? What could you bring to an organization? It’s obviously very tempting to focus on the functional things.

For example, let’s say you’re pro digital marketer, but you’ve also probably had experienced wrangling complex projects, or dealing with certain financials, or understanding a business from three different sides. Because you’ve been doing it. And so thinking a bit more broadly.

Another exercise we recommended in the book is talking to a few folks who know you well about, What would you say my strengths are. What do you feel like I’m excellent at? What could I bring to a new organization? Because people will see things in you that you take for granted in yourself, and those can sometimes be the most powerful.

Then I would frankly lay those out on a list. Firstly, it’s just great to regain your confidence. It can be the basis for updating your resume or your cover letters, and it can be a good cheat sheet before you go into an interview, making sure that you kind of harken back to examples of the skills that you possess. Because that is ultimately what’s going to make that transition more smooth.

Sean Jackson: Kathryn Minshew, thank you so much for being on the show. The name of the book is The New Rules of Work: The Modern Playbook for Navigating Your Career. We truly appreciate you joining us and sharing your insight.

Kathryn Minshew: Thank you so much. I really enjoyed it.

Sean Jackson: Hey, everyone. This is Sean Jackson, the host of The Digital Entrepreneur. And I want to ask you a simple question: What is your business framework for selling digital goods online?

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Welcome back from the break. Now it’s time for our recommendations, Jess. And I’ve got one that is directly applicable to our guest today, but it’s not her book.

Jessica Frick: What is it, John?

Sean Jackson: It so happens that on her site, in addition to the book that they’re promoting at TheMuse.com, they also have this ebook called Employer Branding 101. And it’s an ebook, it’s a download. Go ahead and take a moment to go to TheMuse.com/employers, with an S, and download the book.

Because here’s why: I think much of our audience are online marketers. They understand the art of communicating, inspiring people to act. And, of course, whether it’s an audience that you’re looking to turn into customers or potential employees that you’re looking to hire, this type of understanding of branding is something I think our audience would get right off the bat. And to know that they already have the skill, this book I think would help reinforce it.

So go to TheMuse.com/employers and download her Employer Branding 101 book. That’s my recommendation.

Jessica Frick: That’s a great recommendation. Mine is completely the other way, though.

Sean Jackson: Uh-oh.

Jessica Frick: I’ve been thinking a lot about research lately, as far as keywords and ads in the online space. And I want to recommend SpyFu. You can learn about them. It’s SpyFu.com.

What SpyFu excels at is competitive research. So you can actually type in competitors websites and find out exactly what they’re doing online to give you a better idea on what you should be doing, might consider doing, or what you might want to stay away from.

Sean Jackson: Okay. So SpyFu.com. Definitely well known and absolutely somewhat devious, if you will. But not really, because it’s all information that is out there.

SpyFu.com is Jess’ recommendation. Alrighty, I like that.

Jessica Frick: You know, Sean, you said devious. And that makes me think more about the question that I wanted to ask next week, if you will indulge me.

Sean Jackson: I will.

Finally, Sean and Jessica s Question for the Week: Should You Be Overly Obsessive About Competitive Research?

Jessica Frick: My question is, should you be doing competitive research? Should you be paying attention to what your competitors are doing at all, or is that going to distract you?

Sean Jackson: Ooh, good question. What say you?

Jessica Frick: I think you have to. I think if you don’t know what your competitors are doing, even if you think you don’t have a competitor, I think you should at least know what other people who are in similar spaces are doing so that you can better create that unique selling proposition and really kill it.

Sean Jackson: Well, I will take the counter side of that argument and say that if you focus too much on what your competitors are doing, you may not be focusing enough on what you should be doing.

Jessica Frick: I can see how that would be there. This is a genuine question. I think it could go either way.

Sean Jackson: I think it could, and we will find out how it evolves and our conclusion on the next episode of The Digital Entrepreneur. Take care, everyone.

Jessica Frick: Thanks for listening.

The Transcript

How to Hire the Right Contractor or Employee for Your Online Business

Voiceover: Rainmaker FM. You’re listening to The Digital Entrepreneur, the show for folks who want to discover smarter ways to create and sell profitable digital goods and services. This podcast is a production of Digital Commerce Institute, the place to be for digital entrepreneurs. For more information go to Rainmaker.FM/DigitalCommerce, that’s Rainmaker.FM/DigitalCommerce.

Sean Jackson: Welcome to The Digital Entrepreneur, everyone. I am Sean Jackson, and I am joined, as always, by the delightful Jessica Frick. Jessica, how the Frick are you today?

Jessica Frick: Delightful, Sean. How the Jackson are you?

Sean Jackson: Good. I’m going to have to start looking through my thesaurus and find more synonyms that I can start using to reference you.

Jessica Frick: I was going to say, I’ve been called worse.

Sean Jackson: I know, and mostly by me.

Jessica Frick: Not in the podcast, Sean. Not in the podcast.

Sean Jackson: No. We left everyone hanging last week with our question of the week, which is about when should you bring in outside help, or when should you bring in a contractor or an employee into your organization. Jess, you took the position of bringing them in early in the process, right?

Jessica Frick: Absolutely, otherwise you’re going to go crazy, and we want to avoid that.

Sean Jackson: Give the argument for bringing someone in from the outside early.

Jessica Frick: First off, I’ll say I understand where you’re coming from. You want to wait until you absolutely need them because you don’t want to spend money on things — that’s presuming that’s where you’re going to go with that. I think that it’s worth the money — when you know you’re going to need them eventually anyway — to have somebody come in and own the job. I used to work with a client who would say that if he was the smartest guy on his team he was doing it wrong.

Sean Jackson: Right.

Jessica Frick: He would hire these brilliant people, present company obviously included. We would come in and bring our expertise for things he would never even think of. He was able to grow his business and sell it off. I’m not sure he’s working now. I think he’s just hanging out with those piles of money. I’m not sure. I’ve got to check in with that guy.

I know that I have seen it happen before where businesses will be built and they go through so many strains and pains that your company starts losing morale, you start losing business, and you can’t attend to the business you already have. Thus, you need to get that help before you think you need it, because chances are you’re not going to know you need it until it’s too late.

Sean Jackson: Yeah, I think there’s a case to be made for that. Let me give you the argument against. I think you can’t bring anyone in until you know your business to an extent that you can direct them in the place that you want them to go. Let me explain that. I think there is an evolution to every online business or to every business in general. We all start with the one or two things that we’re doing, and then over time we have more things and more things. We start to say, “The pressure is building. I really need some help.”

But too often, if we bring them in too early, we haven’t thought through what is that help that we need. Defining what we need done and understanding the best way to get it done based on the unique culture that you have in the business. I think sometimes we jump the gun a little bit and say, “I just need to bring somebody in right now. If they’re really smart they’ll figure this whole thing out, because I don’t have any time to talk to them.” I think that’s the mistake you have when you bring them in early. But, of course, to your point, you would say bring them early benefits you how?

Jessica Frick: Because they can expand upon your capabilities and save you from losing your mind.

Sean Jackson: Yeah, that’s a foregone conclusion in some cases.

Jessica Frick: Yeah, you have to be a certain kind of crazy to do this.

Sean Jackson: Yes, I think you had to be crazy to start your own online business, are you kidding me?

Jessica Frick: I think you cannot buy amazing customer service. You just give it. And you give it early and you give it often, because once you screw that up, you can’t get that back.

Sean Jackson: Yeah, what you’re referring to is the fact that if you don’t bring in somebody early enough then you may find that you are losing people quickly because you can’t service them in the way that they were used to when you were smaller and it was just you and maybe just a few customers, a few clients, etc. Right?

Jessica Frick: Exactly.

Sean Jackson: Putting people in early allows you time to train them before things get crazy. It allows you time to sit there and really understand the task at hand and how to service that best. Before the crazy comes on you when you’ve got 20,000 things that are occupying your time and attention. That would be the argument for early. The argument for late is very simple: if you don’t know what you need people to do, then you’re going to be bashing your head against the wall because you haven’t really figured out, “What are those tasks? What are those projects?” Sometimes taking the time to understand them so you can make a strategic move, that helps with time, which means later in the process.

You know what, Jess? It really comes down to what does our audience think. What do they think? Should you bring somebody in early? Should you bring them in later? That’s what it really comes down to, what do you think about that? We have the best mechanism for you to give us that feedback by visiting our page and leaving a comment. Letting us know when you — based on your personal experience — have found it right to bring in those outside people. When we get back from the break, we have …

Jessica Frick: The lovely and talented Jess Ostroff from Don’t Panic Management.

Sean Jackson: Jess is amazing — both our Jessica as well as Jess. But Jess is amazing because she’s built a whole business both with employees and contractors and helping other business owners reach out and have the resources that they need to build their business.

So for today’s interview, we decided that … We had too many Seans on before, right, Jess? We’ve had so many Seans on the show recently that I wanted to confuse our audience even more and bring a Jess on to contrast with our lovely Jessica. Jessica, will you introduce our guest today?

Jessica Frick: I will. She’s one of my favorite people in the whole wide world. She makes me so happy whenever I see her. It’s so fitting that she is CEO and Director of Calm of her company, Don’t Panic Management, which works with small business owners, entrepreneurs, and executives to help them organize and execute their day-to-day operations, giving them the ability to focus on the things that matter most. She is a wonderful human being, a “get ‘er done” girl, and her favorite kind of cheese is aged goat gouda. I introduce you to the lovely Jess Ostroff.

Jess Ostroff: Quite the intro. Thank you, my fellow Jess. It’s so great to be here. Thank you, Sean.

Sean Jackson: Of course.

Jess Ostroff: I’m glad to meet you.

The Pros and Cons of Bringing in Help Early or Later

Sean Jackson: You know, to keep it simple, I’m going to call Jessica Frick “Jessica,” and I’m going to call you Jess. That way our audience won’t get completely confused. So Jess, let’s go through this. Because this is a very important topic, and you are in a very unique position to give the pros and cons. Let’s go through this general setup.

I have been working my online business primarily by myself for some time now. Maybe I’ve used a contractor here and there in pieces and parts, but infrequently. Given the success of my online business, things are starting to grow, I’m making some real money, and my time is really busy. When do you think, based on your experience, should a business owner start to consider putting someone more on a continual contract basis as a part of the organization or bring them in as an employee? What is the triggering event, do you think, to start to consider personnel as a big part of your online business?

Jess Ostroff: In my own experience — it is an interesting position to be in, because not only do I provide these services for other people now, but I also went through this myself as an entrepreneur. Where I got to the point where I had so many clients and so many hours of work that it was actually impeding my quality of life. For me, part of the reason why I started my own business was because I wanted to have the freedom. I wanted to have a flexible lifestyle. The second where I felt like all this money was going into the bank but I didn’t have any time to spend it, that was the time where I decided to bring on more help. I think for a lot of entrepreneurs there’s that friction point where the cost of getting help and of getting some of your time and your sanity back is worth it.

Everyone has a different setup, a different level of profit margin, so I think that cost element is the differentiating factor between whether you should hire a contractor or an employee. Overall, the time when you get overwhelmed and you get to the point where you’re not enjoying what you’re doing and you’re not able to spend any time living your life, I think is when you should start thinking about hiring someone in the first place.

Then, for most people, it’s a slow build. I think that’s why people start with a contractor or freelancer relationship. Because — especially in online businesses and service-based businesses — you can’t always guarantee that you’re going to have X amount of sales or X amount of clients to pay the bills. Starting someone small — maybe five or 10 hours a week — and having the opportunity to grow … When I start working with people, I always ask them what they are doing in the rest of their lives. A lot of them are mothers or fathers, or they’re actors or they’re chefs — they do have other hobbies. But if I wanted to bring them from, say, 10 hours to 15 hours a week, I have the flexibility of doing that.

That’s why that’s a really good option for people. On the other hand, if you’ve all the sudden gone from 10 clients to 50 clients and you really need day-to-day, full-time support, and you know that maybe it’s even administrative things like scheduling your meetings or booking your flights that you’re not getting to … We had a client recently that I’m thinking about who ended up in Vegas a week early for an event because he booked his own travel. That was the pain point for him where he was like, “I’m so busy with my clients that I can’t even book my own flights.”

It’s the pain of screwing up and doing things wrong that was the impetus for him. But there is something really nice about being able to share the burden. That’s what I use my employees for, is having someone there all the time, someone that I can call on. You have to get to a certain level to be able to justify that kind of cost.

The Best Way To Start the Process

Sean Jackson: Let’s talk about that, because I think in the natural evolution of anyone’s business there is going to be that point where you’re looking forward and saying, “I’m going to need some help.” Now, I would hope that you need help because you have so much business coming in and you have so much money that you’re really like, “I’ve got to do something now.” I think for most people it’s a gradual shift between, “I’m going to bring somebody in to start with — maybe on a contract basis, but a very regular contract basis, not ad hoc,” and then moving them to an employee. I’m going to talk about that.

I want to talk about the difference between the regular contractor — which is a service that you provide, obviously, so you have a lot of understanding of that — versus that decision when you’re going to say, “I’m going to put them in as employee.” Because there are trade-offs to both.

Let’s start with what’s in your wheelhouse. Talk about the — I want to call it “continuous contractor.” Not a permanent person, but a continuous contractor. What is the basic thing someone should be looking at when they are considering that type of service, be it a programmer, a writer, a personal assistant? It really doesn’t matter. This is someone on a regular basis. Let’s talk about the decision process on that. Specifically, what should they be looking for? How should they set that up?

Jess Ostroff: I think that when you’re going to work with someone like that on a continual contractor basis, you have to think about what type of tasks you’re going to delegate. If they are the kinds of tasks where they could be done at any hour of the day from anywhere in the world, as long as there’s a deadline and people understand what the instructions are, they’ll get them done. That’s the perfect kind of job for a freelancer or continual contractor relationship.

That’s because usually these kinds of contractors are what we call the digital nomads, or people who actually value their independence and their freedom more than they value — or at least equally as much as they value their career. They might be working from Bali one day and then they might be working from Tennessee another day. For them it’s more about a deadline. As long as they get their work done by this time, it doesn’t matter if they’re holding a nine to five schedule or not.

Sean Jackson: Let’s talk about that, because that’s important, what you just said. The deadline and task-oriented approach. Do you bring in, for instance, some sort of to-do list managing that? I think you’re right. I think you hit on something, which is bringing in that continuous contractor, it’s very much task-oriented. A clearly defined “what I need and when I need it.” Am I using some sort of tool to do that? Is it fairly ad hoc via email? What is the best way to manage that process? I think if you do that you’re going to see success, but the problem is, if you’re so busy, you may forget when they’re supposed to have things to you.

Jess Ostroff: Totally. That’s a huge problem for a lot of people. I frankly don’t think that you can be a successful entrepreneur without having some level of organization. That’s tough love for a lot of people because they think, “I’m the ideas person. I just think of things and then they happen.” No, that’s not how it works. If you are the ideas person, I think doing soul-searching …

That’s something that I work on with a lot of my clients. I have these conversations all the time where people are like, “I know I need help, I just don’t know what I need help with.” I say, “You need to figure that out first. I’m not here to tell you what you need help with. I can consult you on that. I can take you through these processes that help you figure out what to delegate.” But it’s really a soul-searching process, because you’re trying to figure out who you are and what your value is as the business owner, what you’re best at.

Really, once you figure that out, you should be delegating everything else. If you are the ideas person and you’re not detail-oriented and you’re not good at project management or anything like that, then you probably need to get someone to do that first before you even consider hiring anybody else. Like you said, someone does have to manage the tasks. It might be through a tool, it might be through email, it might be through a calendar — that part doesn’t really matter. Everybody has their own preference on that. What matters is that someone’s there managing it and making sure it gets done.

Now, sometimes a contractor can do that. Sometimes these people are super-organized and, like I said, deadline and task-focused, so they are able to manage themselves. I would say the best freelancers and contractors are those self-starters who will say, “If I have a deadline on Friday and it’s Wednesday and I haven’t gotten what I need from my client to get the thing done, I’m going to be poking you for it.”

Whereas there are other people out there who are going to wait and let the deadline pass and say, “You didn’t get me what I needed.” I don’t think that’s the kind of person you want — whether you’re organized and busy and detail-oriented or not. You want to be able to hire … I would say the main benefit of hiring a freelancer or a contractor is that they are self-starter. They are most likely a business owner themselves, so they know how to get work done. They know how to hold themselves accountable and ask for what they need when they need it.

Why Contractors Working a Regular Schedule May Be the Best Way To Start

Sean Jackson: Let’s go through the contractor scenario a little bit more. I do want to jump into the employee side, but on the contractor side, let’s talk about money. How should you look with that continuous contractor in paying them? Is it going to be project-oriented? Should it be just a steady fee? Talk to me a little bit about how you’ve seen clients as well as your own people think about the money side of it. Again, that comes into my factor too. Yeah, I want to bring somebody in — heck I may even hire a project manager as a contractor to manage my other contractors — but what is the fee schedule? Is it continuous, meaning, “I’m going to pay you the same every week,” or is it really, “Hey, you do this, then you get that”?

Jess Ostroff: I think it depends on what you’re working on, but for both sides I think it’s definitely easier to have a fixed monthly fee for a set number of outcomes. It’s not just, “Okay, put in these hours,” necessarily. It’s actually, “Complete these projects and do these tasks.” And actually that’s really important from a legal perspective. You’ve got to be careful with being able to prove that they are on their own time and they have these set of deliverables, because if you ever got audited by the Department of Labor — which I have — you have to be able to prove that they have contracts in place for that.

If you can say, “You’re getting this much done. You’re getting paid for this many,” even if it is hours and you agree on a set hourly rate or you set up a set project rate, I definitely think it’s easier for everyone to pay that way. But if you’re in a situation where your client load really does grow and shrink on a monthly or quarterly basis, you might not want to commit to that. I think that’s okay if the contractor is okay with it.

You just have to figure out what works best for you as the owner. And you have to make sure that your margins are going to cover the freelancer. That’s the thing about contractors, a lot of times they are more expensive because you’re not paying for their health insurance, you’re not paying for their supplies, and you’re not paying to have them in the office. So you have to consider that you might be paying a little more per hour for a freelancer, but overall there’s less risk.

Sean Jackson: Let’s go through the biggest things that you see. What are the two biggest mistakes? I want to talk about employees next. Two biggest mistakes you see — first from the client perspective and second from the contractor perspective. What are the two biggest mistakes that are repeatedly seen in your industry that people are making?

Jess Ostroff: From the client perspective, the biggest mistake is forgetting that a contractor is not an employee and thinking that you have them on the payroll and you can call them and email them and text them at all hours of the day. That’s not how it works. I think that’s a problem. Sometimes it’s a problem on the contractor side, where they haven’t given the client the proper expectation. “I only work for you for ten hours a week, so that means it’s about two hours a day. That’s what this might look like in my relationship with you.” We’ve seen so many clients disrespect that boundary and not remember that a lot of times, like I said, these contractors are their own boss and they are business owners themselves, and they need to be treated that way.

From the contractor side, I think that — not on my team, of course, but other contractors that I’ve seen are unrealistic with how much they can get done and how they can manage themselves and their schedule. Living a freelancer life is not for everybody. Same thing with being an entrepreneur, it’s not for everybody. You’re not really accountable to anybody but yourself. If you don’t do your work and you miss a client deadline, that client’s probably going to fire you. But you may not be motivated by that. I think the biggest contractor mistake I’ve seen — and I’ve heard horror stories from current clients — is that they are good at what they do, but they’re not good at managing themselves and they’re not good at managing their time.

When to Make the Leap and Hire a Full-Time Employee

Sean Jackson: All right, Jessica, let’s go into the employee side. I’ll let you take that over. When I said Jessica, I mean Jessica Frick. See, we’re confusing our audience. Jessica, I want you to talk about the employee side with Jess.

Jessica Frick: My first question is where do you find them?

Jess Ostroff: For me, I have started — anyone that’s become an employee at Don’t Panic started as a contractor. A lot of times they start with me because they maybe needed a little extra money or they’re unhappy at their job. We talk about the “side hustle.” I started that way. A lot of us start by being in a job that we’re not particularly satisfied in. You’re looking for something else, so we freelance a little bit on the side.

That’s how I found my people. They come, they work, and they prove themselves. Then I say, “You know … ” There’s that tipping point where I feel like I want to bring them in full-time and maybe don’t quite have the revenue to cover them yet. I don’t tell them that. But I know that by hiring them it’s an investment. And I know that when I hire them I will be able to make that money, because I’ll have that much more support on my side so I can focus more on the business development and the processes — all the things I’m supposed to do as a CEO.

That’s how I’ve historically found people. I’ve been doing this since 2011. At this point, there are a lot more places that you can look to find these kinds of people. There are more virtual assistants out there, there are more freelancers and web developers out there. I think it’s really about the cultural fit, because if these people can do whatever they want for whatever clients they want, why would they want to become an employee of yours? You have to think about it from that side too.

I found that a lot of people just don’t want to be their own boss, they don’t want to be responsible for finding clients and paying taxes and all the annoying things that you have to do as a business owner. It has not been that difficult for me to find people that want to freelance for me and then want to come on as a full-time employee because of that. They want someone to manage them. They want someone to give them work.

I think finding someone who is younger — not necessarily younger, but at that more entry-level place who’s interested in either leaving their job or growing significantly in the number of hours they’re giving you — and be a mentor to them. Be a good role model for what they want to do in their career, and you’ll be able to develop the relationship to the point where you trust each other enough to actually work together. I think the best employee/employer relationships are the ones that are built on trust and stability.

Jessica Frick: That brings up my next question. You find the right people, and whether they’re full-time or whether you’ve hired a virtual assistant, aside from the money, how do you keep them happy?

The Best Methods for Integrating Staff Into Your Business

Jess Ostroff: It’s really hard in a virtual environment. It’s something that you have to pay attention to more than if you were in an office. Because if I have my corner office on Madison Avenue and someone can pop over and see that I’m just staring out the window and not doing any work, they might not be super happy to continue working for me. But I could be doing that here in my home and they would never know.

Jessica Frick: I’m doing it right now.

Jess Ostroff: Totally. We’re all doing it, I think. But we’ve had to work really hard at that. For me, I’m a little bit more of an extroverted introvert. That was part of why I wanted to leave my job and work at home, because I didn’t really want to talk to people. But I realize that it is important. We do a couple of different things.

One of the first people I hired as a full-time person was an HR-type role. She’s our cheerleader. She keeps the team happy. She sends out Monday motivation. She does things to keep spirits high. She thinks of things like, “Oh, so and so’s mother-in-law went in to the hospital, let’s send them flowers.” She’s the one that thinks of little things like that, because I realized I wasn’t very good at that.

Like I said before, figure out the things you’re not good at and hire for that. We also have a private Facebook group. Some people do Slack channels, HipChat — there’s all kinds of ways to stay connected. We have a virtual office tool called Sococo, where it looks like a floor plan and we all have our own little cubicles, so people can see when we’re working and when we’re not, technically. Someone can pop over my office and say, “Hey, I have a question about this client,” or, “Hey, my pay check’s wrong.” Whatever it is. They know that I’m there and available.

And I’ll change my status. Like right now — we actually have a room in our Sococo office called “the sound booth,” and that’s where we go if we’re recording a podcast. I have my own podcast now, so when I’m recording episodes it’s like, “I’m still here. I’m still working. But don’t bother me because I’m in the sound booth.”

Sean Jackson: That’s great.

Jess Ostroff: Yeah, it’s awesome. It’s just another way for everyone to feel like there’s a little thread connecting us. We employ a lot of women, and women tend to be a little more touchy-feely about that stuff. They just want to know they’re not alone. It can be really lonely as a freelancer or as an entrepreneur working from home. It’s just a little way for us to stay in touch in the times when we feel that way — or even if we don’t.

We also do — once a month we do these little lunch and learn things where a different person from our team will share for an hour something that they’ve been working on. We try to highlight our team’s personal achievements. Like I said, a lot of them are parents, a lot of them are doing other things and have other hobbies in their lives.

I feel like, as an entrepreneur, I’m supporting those by hiring them. I’m supporting those other dreams that they have. But I want to support them in other ways too. Make them feel like … It’s actually good for you to go out and play at things in your garden or cook things in your kitchen, because I think that that holistic human hobby thing makes you a better employee and a better worker. I love that.

Sean Jackson: Let’s go through this. I think you brought up some amazing points, but I also want to go to the bad side. Being the only guy on the call, I’m going to think of some bad things because you’re so piffy at positives.

Jess Ostroff: Thanks, Sean.

When and Why Should You Let Your Staff Go

Sean Jackson: Let’s talk about when you have to make that gut-wrenching call to cut off the contractor. To fire the employee. Inevitably you’ve worked very hard to build processes, and you’ve worked very hard to make sure that everyone knows what they are supposed to do — building some camaraderie, as well as helping the client feel like they are getting value from the service. But at the same time, there are just some times where people don’t fit.

Most of the time it’s a cultural thing. It’s not the skills of the person, it’s sometimes the cultural aspect. The client can’t get along with them, or you’ve been working with them and they just don’t fit inside the environment. Talk about the contractor side. When do you recognize that you need to cut off that continuous contractor? And then, conversely, about the employee side? When do you need to cut that relationship? Let’s end on that side, which I know is not very positive, but does come up.

Jess Ostroff: I’m going to make it positive, Sean, if it’s the last thing I do.

Sean Jackson: Good.

Jess Ostroff: Just kidding. This is something that you think you know and then you don’t know. You don’t really get taught how to deal with this. One of the things that we’ve done at this point is we’ve implemented a three-strikes rule. I don’t really like to call it that, because it seems very cut and dry — it’s not.

When we figured out what the things were … Like you said, sometimes it’s just they’re not getting their work done, or they’re not getting it done on time, or they’re not getting it done well. Sometimes it’s the fit thing — and we work really hard in the hiring process to try to avoid that. I would say not only on the hiring process of the assistant side, but also on figuring out who we want our clients to be. We’re really picky about who we’re even going to bring on as a client, because we don’t want to go through that. We don’t want to have to say, “Hey, you’re not a good fit. Bye.”

We want to keep them forever. We’ve had some of our clients for five, six, seven, eight years, and that’s part of why we’ve been successful. I think that, as the business owner, you have your own metrics of what success looks like — or you should. If you don’t, you need to determine that before you hire somebody, because then you can say, “I really like this person but they’re not hitting these metrics. They’re not responding to my emails in a timely manner. They’re not giving me the right attitude when I give them feedback.” Whatever those metrics are, it should be really easy for you to see whether or not somebody is hitting them that you’ve hired.

For me, I think I’m really good at compartmentalizing work and personal. The lines get blurry when you’re in these relationships, because when you have a personal assistant they’re seeing your life, and it can get super personal. You have to be able to delineate between, “Okay, do I like this person and is that why I’m keeping them?” Or, “Are they just not doing a good job, or are they not a good fit for me?”

I would never let someone go without giving them feedback. I would always try to work with them and get them to the place I want them to be. This is another thing, I would say, is the second biggest mistake that clients make with hiring someone. They think their assistant or their contractor can jump into their brain and just know what they want.

That would be awesome. If I could invent that technology and be able to do that I would, but you can’t. There’s an investment on the client side. There’s an investment of time and giving someone that training. Giving someone the expectations that you need for them to be successful. And if you’re not willing to do that, then all of a sudden, “Oh, they didn’t do it the way I want it. I’m firing them.” That’s unreasonable. You need to tell them exactly what you want, when you want it, how you want it. Then, over time they can start to learn, and hopefully preempt your instructions because they start to know you so well.

That doesn’t happen overnight. You need to be able to invest that time. One, I would always give feedback. Two, I would try to separate the personal and professional. Even if you like them, if it’s not a good fit, let them go. It’s better to let them go sooner than later. That’s something that I’ve learned the hard way in the past and now I just don’t. I say, “Hey, you’re not a good fit. I’m happy to help you if you want to get another position or if you want to try something else, but we’re done here.”

The good thing for me — I’d say the good thing for a lot of business owners today — is that the freelancer pool is enormous. The amount of people who want to work in this capacity is enormous. So even if you let one person go, there’s going to be another person there and there’s probably going to be a better person out there for you.

Sean Jackson: Sure. Jess, I think you bring up a very good point. When you do bring someone in — whether they are a constant contractor, full-time employee, or even a part-time employee — when you’re bringing them in, you take a responsibility on to educate them, to train them, and to communicate with them. I think that’s probably something that we feel when we’re working on our own. “Well, they should just get it, just like I get it because I’ve been doing it all the time,” forgetting that you know it because you do it all the time.

I think when you fundamentally look to outside resources, you have to be committed to investing the time, knowing that the payoff on that is that they will get really good. If they don’t, you have to cut them loose. But it’s okay, because they’re probably going to find something that is a better fit in the long term. Would you say that’s a pretty accurate statement?

Jess Ostroff: Definitely. I would say — if you want to lessen the burden a little bit — if this is the first time you’re hiring someone and training them, as you’re going through those trainings with them, record them. Do them on a screen flow or do them on some kind of video or something, where the next time — if it doesn’t work out — you’ve invested the time, but you don’t have to invest the same time again. You have it all recorded and then you can give it to the next person.

Sean Jackson: Jess, this has been phenomenal. Jessica and I can’t thank you enough for being here today, because you really are someone who has to live with all of these issues. I loved the insight that you provided today, so thank you again for being on our show.

Jess Ostroff: Thank you so much for having me. I love you guys. I love the show. And I look forward to more.

Jessica Frick: Thank you, Jess.

Sean Jackson: We will be right back after this short break.

Hey, everyone, this is Sean Jackson, the host of The Digital Entrepreneur. I want to ask you a simple question. What is your business framework for selling digital goods online? Now, if the question perplexes you, don’t worry, you’re not alone. Most people don’t realize that the most successful digital entrepreneurs have a framework or general process for creating and selling their digital goods in the online space. One of the best free resources is Digital Commerce Academy. Digital Commerce Academy combines online learning with case studies and webinars created by people who make a living selling digital goods online. The best part is that this material is free when you register.

Are you interested in joining? I’ll make it easy for you. If you’re listening to the show on your phone and are in the continental United States, I want you to send a text message to 313131 with the keyword “digits.” When you send that text message, we will send you a link to the registration form right to your phone. Are you outside the United States? Don’t worry. Just send us an email to Digits@Rainmaker.FM. Either way, we’ll send you a link to the registration form so that you can sign up for free for Digital Commerce Academy. As a special bonus, we will also subscribe you to our newsletter when you text or email us so that you can stay informed with the latest insights from the show.

Don’t worry, we respect your privacy. We will not share your email or phone number, and you can easily unsubscribe at any time. If you want to start building or improving your framework for selling digital goods online, then please send a text to 313131 with the keyword “digits,” or send us an email at Digits@Rainmaker.FM. You won’t be disappointed.

Welcome back from the break, Jess, it is our time for recommendations. What do you have?

Jessica Frick: Since we have Jess on the show today, I want to recommend another great book on a similar topic by Chris Ducker, one of our —

Sean Jackson: Who?

Jessica Frick: Chris Ducker, everybody knows Chris.

Sean Jackson: I know.

Jessica Frick: If you don’t know him, you’re about to know him. Check out VirtualFreedomBook.com. Chris outlines in detail exactly what you need to do when working with virtual staff to get more time and, in turn, be more productive.

Sean Jackson: That’s a good book for the topic we covered this week. I am going to key off something that Jess mentioned in the show, which is Sococo, because that little tool — with having your own little virtual rooms for a virtual organization — makes a huge amount of sense to me, especially when she said she had a podcasting room. So I think everyone should at least check it out.

If you’re running a virtual organization with multiple people, whether they are contractors on a constant basis or employees, let’s take a look at that Sococo tool — which has the worst name, but is an awesome tool. Let’s put that as my recommendation for the week. We’ll, of course, include both of these in the show notes on the page for the episode. Which leads us to the end of the show and our question for the week. Jess, are you ready?

Jessica Frick: I am, Sean.

Sean Jackson: Okay, here is the question. We all know about the unique selling proposition and its importance in any business. However, there’s one question related to how unique should you really be. In other words, how much should you really try to stand out, versus just a little bit of standing out? What do you say? Should you be really weird and so original that you are unrelatable? Should you be unique enough that you’re remarkable and memorable, but not so much that people are like, “Who’s the crazy person?”

Jessica Frick: Asking me is like walking around the asylum looking for a crazy diagnosis. Yeah, I say go as weird as you need.

Sean Jackson: Go as weird as you need. Okay.

Jessica Frick: Get weird.

Sean Jackson: I will take the more restrained aspect, given my nature and personality, that you want to be remarkable but not completely out there, however —

Jessica Frick: Sean, that’s totally you. You’ll wear this fancy suit and then you’ve got your expensive skull ring just hiding.

Sean Jackson: You know what? Folks, what do you think? Should you really be out there and be so unique that it is different, or should you be a little bit more restrained and more memorable? What do you think? We’re going to cover this topic in our next episode of The Digital Entrepreneur. Everyone, have a great week.

Jessica Frick: Thanks for listening.

The Transcript

What Online Entrepreneurs Need to Know about Affiliate Marketing

Voiceover: Rainmaker FM.

You’re listening to The Digital Entrepreneur, the show for folks who want to discover smarter ways to create and sell profitable digital goods and services. This podcast is a production of Digital Commerce Institute, the place to be for digital entrepreneurs. For more information go to Rainmaker.FM/DigitalCommerce, that’s Rainmaker.FM/DigitalCommerce.

Sean Jackson: Welcome to The Digital Entrepreneur everyone. I am your host, Sean Jackson, and I’m joined as always by the diligent Jessica Frick. Jessica, how the frick are you today?

Jessica Frick: I am diligent, Sean. How the Jackson are you?

Sean Jackson: I am well. I am well as always.

Jessica Frick: You sound so much better, Sean. You haven’t been feeling well. You sound great.

Sean Jackson: You know, again, as I’ve always said, it’s for the audience. I feel like absolute pounded poo poo but I am going to make my way through it.

Jessica Frick: It’s that show biz flare. You got it.

Which is More Important: the Quantity of Leads or the Quality of the Process

Sean Jackson: There you go. So we left everyone hanging last week with the question of, “What matters more? The quantity of leads or the process of converting leads?” I’m going to go ahead and take the quantity argument because I want you to go in depth on the process side. Okay? Here is my argument for quantity of leads matters more than the process for converting them. Okay?

Jessica Frick: Okay.

Sean Jackson: If you don’t have leads, who cares what your process is? So you need to get them.

Jessica Frick: Well, that’s a good point.

Sean Jackson: You want a ton of them because being a small business, there will naturally be what I call spillage, right? There will just be people that are coming in who are, you’re just not going to be able to get to. Something is going to break in the system, and if you had a bigger team, if you had a bigger organization, then you can take care of spillage. But at the end of the day, being small, you can’t deal with it, so you might as well get as many as possible so that the few that don’t spill out, you can convert them. That would be one argument. What say you?

Jessica Frick: Well, the argument that I have would be the better argument, but you know, we are a customer-first company, and we always think about that customer perspective, and unless you have processes to treat them right, not only are they going to bail, but they’re going to tell their friends to not talk to you. They’re not taking their ball. They’re taking their ball and all of their friends with them.

Sean Jackson: Ah.

Jessica Frick: Acquisition is hard, but activation and retention, that requires process. And not only that, but if you don’t have process, your team is going to burn out fast. If you don’t have a team, what difference does it make if you have a million leads? You can’t do anything with them.

Sean Jackson: Yeah, very good point.

Jessica Frick: So process is more important, because the amount of leads that you have can be adjusted, but if you can’t activate and retain them, it doesn’t really matter.

Sean Jackson: Well, see. That is a good argument, and I will counter with this. I think that when you have a process, then you’re going to want to fill that pipeline up as much as possible, right? Now, it may not be a perfect process. It may be something that is good enough to get you to some sort of revenue for the business enterprise.

At that point, once you have a process, then of course, stacking as many leads into that pipeline then become paramount. If we find the middle ground, which I don’t always like to do, but if we found the middle ground, I would say that you have to have a process, but then once you have that process, then you want to stack up the quantity. What say you?

Jessica Frick: I think that sounds reasonable.

Sean Jackson: Okay.

Jessica Frick: I think it has to happen in that order. I think you need to have some leads, then work out your processes, then you get more leads and you tweak your processes, and you’re just always growing and changing with the demand.

Sean Jackson: Yeah, and I think that’s a part of it. I think really where the end output of this discussion is, is that it is a constant feedback loop, right? You have to have somebody who wants to buy what you’ve got to begin with and you’re going to have to put a process in. I would say start with the process first, right? I’m giving my honest opinion on this. I’d say have a process, get some leads into it, and then continually refine both the acquisition and quantity of leads and the process that goes with it so that spillage, which is natural, can be addressed through the continuous feedback loop and continuously addressing what is occurring in your little ecosystem.

I will say this. One of the things, it’s always hard to take a side of an argument is that if you are only closing 1% of the leads that you get in, then you could double the size of your business by just improving the process in closing 2%, right? But, if you’ve only got five people. You know what I’m saying?

I think the end output for our audience is very simple. It is a continuous feedback loop. It is a continuous process of putting a process in, filling the pipeline, refining the process, refining the pipeline, and that’s the back and forth. Because literally your business can grow not because you got a hundred million people coming in. It could grow because you’re just taking ten thousand and converting more of them in the process that you have. Would you say that’s a logical statement?

Jessica Frick: That sounds logical to me.

Sean Jackson: Good, and the nice thing about today’s show is that we actually have some experts as our guests who came up with this idea of “growth hacking.” In fact, they’re called the Growth Hackers. I’m going to let Jess really take the lead on this because she really is the process gal, and we’re going to interview the founders of Growth Hackers and the authors of the new book, Hacking Growth.

We are joined today by two, I would say, extraordinary individuals. Jess, wouldn’t you say that?

Jessica Frick: Absolutely.

Sean Jackson: We have with us Sean Ellis, who is the founder and CEO of Growth Hackers, which is convenient, given the fact that he coined the term “growth hacker” back in 2010. But prior to being with Growth Hackers, he was the founder and CEO of Qualaroo with customers such as Uber, Starbucks, Spotify, and Intuit. And he also laid the foundation as the first marketing executive to help grow five different companies including UpRoar, LogMeIn, Lookout, EventBrite, and DropBox to more than one billion in valuation.

Our second guest, who happens to be the coauthor of their book is Morgan Brown. Morgan is a startup marketing veteran with more than 15 years helping early stage companies find traction and growth. He took his first job at a startup in 1999, and then worked for a marketing agency, and then he moved to the startup world again to grow venture-backed startups such as TurnHere and ScoreBig. Morgan also writes regularly at MorganBrown.co. So with that introduction, gentlemen, welcome to the show, and Jess, I’m going to turn it over to you and let you run this interview.

Jessica Frick: I would love to, Sean. So Morgan, Sean, thank you so much for joining us.

Sean Ellis: Thank you Jessica.

Morgan Brown: Yeah, thanks for having us.

The Right Mindset You Must Have to Create a Growth Hacking Culture

Jessica Frick: As I’ve told you both, I’m very excited to read your new book when it comes out, and so since we’re talking about business growth on this week’s episode, I figured you guys would be perfect men to ask these questions. My first question: At a philosophical level, what is the mindset you need to be successful with growth hacking?

Sean Ellis: I’m happy to take that one. I think you have to have this recognition that everything you’re doing, there’s a better way to do it, and the only way to figure out the better way to do it is through testing. And that that testing should really be directed toward delivering more value to users, and when you do that, growth seems to be an outcome of that. That just continuous improvement mindset would probably be what I would latch onto the most. Anything you would add to that Morgan?

Morgan Brown: No, I completely agree. I think just the understanding that there’s always a better way to do things and that you can constantly improve is really at the heart of growth hacking, and I think the only other thing that I would add is that as people, we tend to underestimate how fast things are changing out in the world and how fast people’s behaviors are changing, the competition coming and going. You have to pair that constant improvement mindset with an urgency to move as quickly as possible and not be caught off guard with how fast things are actually moving, so I would add an urgency to that constant improvement.

Jessica Frick: That makes a lot of sense. I would imagine it’s very easy to get stuck. Now, you guys talk a lot about big businesses and rapid, successful growth. How can a solo entrepreneur use growth hacking, given the huge demands on their time already?

Sean Ellis: Well, we talk about big businesses. Most of the businesses that I worked with were tiny businesses when I started working with them. DropBox for example was less than 10 employees and I know that’s still not a solo entrepreneur, but I think for a solo entrepreneur, you want to be able to think holistically about the customer experience and not just gravitate toward, “I need more customers,” but instead think, “How do I get someone from consideration of my product to actually coming in and experiencing it?”

Really thinking about that full journey from there and just an understanding that there’s a lot of levers that can be flipped. And especially for a solo entrepreneur who doesn’t have a lot of time and, potentially, resources, making sure that the focus is on the area where you’re going to have the biggest impact is really important. And sometimes the biggest impact is not going out and spending a lot more money or figuring out how to get a lot more customers potentially interested, but figuring out how to convert and retain the customers that are already coming to you, for example.

How Understanding Leverage can Rapidly Accelerate Growth

Jessica Frick: That makes a lot of sense. That brings me to my next question perfectly. You talk about leverage being an important part of growth hacking. What does that really mean to you?

Morgan Brown: Kind of to Sean’s point, is that there’s so many things that you can do to try to grow your business and what I always try to think about when I’m working on my own business or working with the companies that I work with is, If I make a difference in what I’m doing right now, will it make a difference to the outcome of the business?

I think that’s the essential idea of leverage, is finding the one or two things that you can do and change and improve on that will create outsized results. As a solo entrepreneur, as a business owner, there’s a million things you could focus on at any one time, but you only have so much time and so much money to really … you can’t do it all. In growth hacking, really one of the first steps is identifying where you have the most leverage, where if you’re able to improve that one or two things, it will create dramatically better results and kind of outsized gains as a result of that.

Sean Ellis: I could give a quick example from LogMeIn about just the power of leverage. Sometimes-

Jessica Frick: Oh, that’d be awesome.

Sean Ellis: Sometimes it’s a little abstract without a specific example there, so at LogMeIn, we tried to grow the business initially, and I approached that as most marketers do initially where I just went out and started buying ads and could actually work on landing pages a little bit, but what I found was we quickly hit a wall at about $10,000 a month and how much we could spend to acquire users and get a positive return on investment.

What I was looking at, though, was optimizing to get people to sign up for the product, but basically, the majority of the people who signed up never actually used the product. So if they didn’t use it, then they weren’t going to pay us anything. They weren’t going to tell their friends. They weren’t going to stick around.

It was really beyond my control to do most of the things. After they registered, all of the things that needed to be done were beyond my control, so I brought the data to our CEO. We were still small enough where it wasn’t that hard to get the company to turn on a dime and realize that this activation area was where our leverage opportunity was.

The signup-to-usage was a goal that we put as an overall team where we all focused our energy on improving that. It took a few months of experimentation there, but we were able to get about a thousand percent increase in the number of people who signed up and actually used the product. Once we had done that, we went back to the same channels that previously scaled to $10,000 a month, and now we could spend over $1,000,000 a month on those channels.

Jessica Frick: Whoa.

Sean Ellis: Yeah, the money was paid back every three months so we got a fast return on that investment, so it just shows that power of leverage, where a lot of people are thinking about growth hacking, It’s this really creative trickery,” but ultimately we were fixing something that was kind of confusing in the onboarding path of a new user and then with no new creativity, we were much more effective on our customer acquisition. That’s really this idea of leverage, is just finding what’s that “choke point” that’s really preventing your growth.

The Importance of Experimentation to Implementing Testing

Jessica Frick: So you’re talking about activation and acquisition as huge levers. One thing that I was reading in the pre-order materials for your book, you were talking about testing at a high tempo. Of course, when I read that I’m like, “Oh my gosh. How fast can you actually do that? Doesn’t testing take time?” How would you recommend someone with a very small business go about something like that?

Morgan Brown: You have to start wherever you are. So if you’re a very small business and you haven’t done any testing at all, the first step is to commit to experimenting and to try to experiment with the things that you’re doing. My mom is a solo entrepreneur. She runs her own little business and I was talking with her about the book and she was like, “How can I start testing?” I said, “Well you send that weekly newsletter out constantly. Have you ever experimented with that?”

She says, “No, I just send it.” I said, “Well great. Start experimenting with the subject lines to see which ones generate the most opens so more people are reading your newsletter.” I think really you have to take that approach of just make a commitment to start experimenting and then try to speed up and build in more experiments as you get more comfortable and more adept at running them.

Once you kind of get the hang of what it means to experiment in your business and experiment on the parts of your business that have the most impact, then you can increase the velocity. Sean and I talk a lot about there’s two ways to go fast. You can go fast like a Formula 1 race car going around a hairpin turn, or you can go fast like a truck whose brakes have gone out on a mountain road. You definitely don’t want to be the trucks whose brakes have gone out.

I think it’s really about trying to build your speed as you get more comfortable experimenting. Sure, some companies like Amazon are going to run thousands of experiments. That’s not really what we’re talking about. If you’re a solo entrepreneur, it’s about trying to experiment just on a regular basis and building up your ability to do more and more tests. Sean, I don’t know if you want to add anything to that, but that’s-

Sean Ellis: Yeah, just a couple of things. There’s tools out there like Unbounce for landing pages and Optimizely. As Morgan was talking about with email, there’s really easy tools for doing these tests where some of these tests take five or ten minutes to implement. They’re super fast with the right tools.

It’s not really something that a solo entrepreneur shouldn’t have the capacity to do and they could be so high impact on the business that banging your head against the wall when it’s because you have the wrong headline on your page and that headline is really easy to test in something like Unbounce. It’s worth doing those tests.

Jessica Frick: Absolutely. Another thing you guys were talking about in hacking your funnel is retention. A lot of these things that we’ve been discussing, talk about acquisition and whatnot, but subject lines on newsletters, that’s retention focused. And you can also just keep them coming back for more.

Sean Ellis: One of the things with retention is the right first experience is probably the most powerful way to drive retention.

Jessica Frick: That makes perfect sense to me.

Sean Ellis: Yeah, if they don’t use a product correctly the first time, they’re not coming back.

Jessica Frick: Now, do you think people should be giving more focus to existing or new when it comes to growth hacking?

Sean Ellis: I personally feel like the highest leverage that I see for most companies who are just getting started is around activation. It kind of sits right in the middle of the existing and new. It’s essentially that first user experience, and really I like to start with the most passionate customers, really understand how they’re using the product, the benefit that they’re getting, and then build messaging that reflects that on the surface level, and then start to make the actual experience of a new user coming in. Experiment to get them to the experience as quickly as possible, that will make them a passionate customer.

To Survey or Not to Survey?

Jessica Frick: Now, here’s a question for you. I have my own personal thoughts on this, but I would love to hear your ideas on hacking growth and surveys. How do you feel about directly asking people what they want?

Morgan Brown: Sean, I’ll let you take kind of the mechanics of it.

Sean Ellis: Sure.

Morgan Brown: Sean and I are both passionate about surveying users, going right out and talking to them. Growth hacking, for us, is really a data driven, scientific approach to figuring out what moves the needle in your business and what helps you grow your business. But that data isn’t just the numbers in your analytics. It’s also the qualitative data you get from your customers.

The data in your analytics can tell you what’s happening, but only customer feedback can give you that context to help you understand why the behaviors that you’re seeing are actually occurring. I think at every step of the customer life cycle, there’s a case for surveys and a case for customer input. Sean, I don’t know if you can talk about some different ways to use them but-

Sean Ellis: Yeah. I mean, the only thing I was going to say on the high level question of, “To survey or not to survey,” is that interestingly, I had a VC way back in the early days of LogMeIn who pushed me to talk to customers and do surveys. I told him at the time, “I don’t actually care what customers say. I care what customers do, and I’m going to test, and surveying is really not that important to me.” And he said, “Well I just invested a lot of money and you’re going to do surveying.” So I said, “Okay.”

I really just went through the motions of surveying for several months and then one day I realized that my tests were so much better because I had the insights from the surveys. I was no longer guessing with my tests. My tests were addressing real problems that were revealed in these surveys. I actually ended up, later on, building a survey business that we sold last year. I became such a convert to the importance of surveys that I focused all of my energy on it for a few years.

Morgan Brown: Yeah, and I think one of the things that business owners who are listening should kind of take away is it’s not a one time thing. You don’t just survey people and say, “Okay, I know what people are thinking,” but you have to build it into your overall business process. At the business that I run, we survey our customers once a quarter, just the whole customer base once a quarter to kind of understand how we’re doing. Then we also are running surveys as people sign up for the service or hit a landing page and then go away without signing up. We try to survey them. It’s kind of a continual process of getting feedback and not kind of a one-time event.

Jessica Frick: Interesting, and so as you add more surveys, would you consider that a dovetail with your experimental testing?

Sean Ellis: Yeah, it definitely can, but go ahead.

Morgan Brown: Yeah, I was going to say it’s an input to help you figure out what to experiment on. If you get a bunch of feedback that a particular part of the product or service that you offer isn’t particularly valuable or on the flip side that there’s one or two things that really stand out to people as the ultimate value of what you offer, you should use that input to kind of feed into your marketing and customer acquisition efforts, how you refine and develop new products and so on and so forth.

The Essential Steps You Can Take Right Now to Grow Your Online Business

Jessica Frick: That’s awesome. You know that may be the answer to my last question here. Aside from buying Hacking Growth, obviously, which they could do at GrowthHacker.com, aside from buying Hacking Growth what is the one tip you have for small businesses and solo entrepreneurs who might be listening to this to deploy the growth hacking model to their online business?

Sean Ellis: So my tip, and then we ll let Morgan give his tip, but my tip would be just quantify the number of tests that you’re running. If you run zero tests today, that’s your baseline. Then start to track the number of tests you’re running, and try to get it to the point where you’re running multiple tests per week and when you run multiple tests per week, then you’ll get smarter about which tests you run and where you focus those tests. But for most people it’s about moving from not testing at all or very few tests to actually running more tests and it’s through those tests that you learn about what’s going to work and what’s not going to work. There’s a lot of other pieces that go into place to running really great tests, but start by just committing to running more tests.

Jessica Frick: I love that.

Morgan Brown: Yeah, and my tip would just be to look at your business currently and look at how you acquire new customers and how those customers turn into revenue for your business and identify, like Sean said, the one main pain point, or choke point, where those customers are falling off, where that process of turning a new visitor into a customer is failing and really try to understand that pinch point or that choke point and lean into there to try to improve that.

I think too often, as business owners and marketers, we kind of take for granted what’s broken is kind of the way things are and we go try to find new opportunities, and I think that’s a bit of a mistake. I think the better thing is to look at what’s already happening and then try to find the main choke point or pinch point and fix that first.

Jessica Frick: Love that, and I love that you guys have used that word “activation” as a real important part of the process to really focus on, in the middle of new and existing. So thank you so, so much. I would encourage everyone to visit GrowthHacker.com to learn more from Sean and Morgan. Gentlemen, I know you’re very busy with all of your book launch stuff. I appreciate you taking the time to talk with us.

Sean Ellis: Thank you Jess. We really appreciate the opportunity to share what we’re working on with you and your audience.

Morgan Brown: Yeah, thanks so much for having us. We really appreciate it.

Jessica Frick: And we’ll be back right after the break.

Sean Jackson: Hey, everyone. This is Sean Jackson, the host of The Digital Entrepreneur, and I want to ask you a simple question. What is your business framework for selling digital goods online? Now, if the question perplexes you, don t worry you re not alone. Most people don t realize that the most successful digital entrepreneurs have a framework or general process for creating and selling their digital goods in the online space. One of the best free resources is Digital Commerce Academy. Digital Commerce Academy combines online learning with case studies and webinars created by people who make a living selling digital goods online. The best part is that this material is free when you register.

Are you interested in joining? Well, I ll make it easy for you. If you are listening to the show on your phone and are in the continental United States, I want you to send a text message to 313131 with the keyword DIGITS. When you send that text message, we will send you a link to the registration form right to your phone.

Are you outside the United States? Don t worry. Just send us an email to Digits@Rainmaker.FM. Either way, we ll send you a link to the registration form so that you can sign up for free for Digital Commerce Academy, and as a special bonus, we will also subscribe you to our newsletter when you text or email us, so that you can stay informed with the latest insights from the show.

And don t worry we respect your privacy, and we will not share your email or phone number, and you can easily unsubscribe at any time. If you want to start building or improving your framework for selling digital goods online, then please send a text to 313131 with the keyword DIGITS, or send us an email at Digits@Rainmaker.FM. You won t be disappointed.

Recommendations for the Week

Sean Jackson: Welcome back from the break everyone. So Jess, now it’s time for our recommendations for the week. What should be people reading or using this week?

Jessica Frick: Obviously, I have to go with the book Hacking Growth.” I know this show is going to launch just before it comes out and they have some pre-launch bonuses, but it’s going to be worth every penny after it comes out. I have preordered the book, so I can’t wait to read it, but I know that just the information that these two gentlemen have in their head is worth every penny spent. I cannot wait.

Sean Jackson: And that’s at GrowthHackers.com, is that where it is? Or GrowthHacker. GrowthHacker.

Jessica Frick: Yes, GrowthHacker. I know there’s two of them-

Sean Jackson: Right.

Jessica Frick: But that’s my recommendation. What’s yours Sean?

Sean Jackson: Mine’s going to be Clearbit.com, and I’m going to tell you why. If you are familiar with it, you’ll understand. If you’re not, let me explain what it is. Clearbit.com has an API which is a fancy way of saying they have a way for computers and systems to talk to each other, and what it does is it can take email addresses and append additional information like people’s Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn profiles, the companies they work for, their titles, where they’re located all automatically.

The one feature that they have that I really do like, which I think everyone who is listening should put it on their site right away, is they do have the ability for you to take the Clearbit API. Clearbit.com, get the API key, and you can put it into Google Analytics. So all of the visitors to your site, it can start appending information to the visitor data. Isn’t that cool?

Jessica Frick: Creepy and also awesome.

Sean Jackson: I’m a huge fan of that system and trust me, we have tested so many of them out. If you haven’t had a chance, go to Clearbit.com, sign up, get their API key, put it into Google Analytics. It is totally worth it. They also have a Google Sheets feature, so you can take email addresses in Google Sheets and append additional data.

It’s probably one of the best tools out there that I’ve found for augmenting customer data with additional data points. So we’ve got Hacking Growth at GrowthHacker.com, and we’ve got Clearbit API at Clearbit.com as our recommendations for the week. So Jess, to end the show, what is the question for the week?

And of Course, our Question for the Week When Should you Bring in Outside Help to Grow Your Business?

Jessica Frick: You know, talking with the guys, we were discussing all of this growth and I wondered, Sean, when is it the right time to bring in help?

Sean Jackson: Hm. You mean outside help right? When should you outsource some things versus trying to do it all internally?

Jessica Frick: Yeah, or when do you need to augment your team with someone to keep you from going crazy?

Sean Jackson: Yeah, I think that’s true because there is definitely an idea of the fact that we as solo entrepreneurs want to do it all ourselves, right? Maybe we do need some outside help. When do we bring that in? When is the decision? What do you say, you? When do you think you should bring them in?

Jessica Frick: I think you bring them in early before you lose your mind.

Sean Jackson: Uh, no, see, I’m going to take the opposite. I’m going to say later. You got to figure out what you’re doing so you can instruct them with the data. But you know what, Jess?

Jessica Frick: What’s that?

Sean Jackson: This deserves a bigger conversation, and we’re going to do that next time on The Digital Entrepreneur. Everyone have a great week.

Jessica Frick: Thanks for listening.

The Transcript

How to Do Simple PPC Advertising for Your Online Business

Voiceover: Rainmaker FM.

You are listening to The Digital Entrepreneur, the show for folks who want to discover smarter ways to create and sell profitable digital goods and services. This podcast is a production of Digital Commerce Institute, the place to be for digital entrepreneurs. For more information, go to Rainmaker.FM/DigitalCommerce. That’s Rainmaker.FM/DigitalCommerce.

Sean Jackson: Welcome to The Digital Entrepreneur, everyone. I’m your host Sean Jackson. I’m joined, as always, by the analytical Jessica Frick. Jessica, how the Frick are you?

Jessica Frick: I am still deciding. How the Jackson are you, Sean?

Sean Jackson: Always well. I am excited to continue our debate from last week about PPC. In fact, the whole show is about PPC, so we might as well put it at the top — our question — which was: is PPC for everyone? You say?

Jessica Frick: I say that it’s not.

Sean Jackson: Okay, tell me why.

Jessica Frick: I think that digital entrepreneurs should have a varied marketing mix, but I don’t think pay-per-click is for everyone. I think it’s certainly a good idea for most people, but I don’t know that it’s going to be the right play for everyone. Now, I think there’s some validity in saying you don’t know until you try it, but that’s not what we asked.

Sean Jackson: Right.

Jessica Frick: What we asked is, “Is it for everyone?” and I don’t know that it’s going to pay off for everyone. I don’t know that everyone’s business is the right model for that kind of conversion.

Sean Jackson: Yeah, I think that’s an important point to make, is that you really have to look at how your business operates. When we say PPC, we of course mean pay-per-click online advertising, etc. I would say, Jess, in support of your argument, if you were selling something very inexpensive, you may not have the margin to actually afford to advertise that way, with PPC. You may not even have the margin to do an experimentation, especially if you’re strapped for cash. Would you say that’s an accurate statement?

Jessica Frick: Absolutely.

Sean Jackson: But those cases, I think, are far and few between. I’ll let you have that argument in very niche cases. I’m going to give the affirmative. What I’m going to tell you folks is this: I think you do yourself a disservice if you don’t at least test things out. Now, it could be that PPC is not right for you because of you. You may be the actual problem. So, while others may see success in it — you, your business, how things are run, how you operate — you may not actually be ready for it.

But, if you can do the basics of online marketing, which you probably do today. You have a website. You’re selling something online. You are out there communicating to social media. You’re looking at search engines and how to improve your placement in there. Then you’re going to have to, at some point, put PPC in the mix. Because you’ve done everything else. I think that for most online businesses, they do a disservice if they don’t test it out to start with and then — I’ll caveat it this way — give yourself permission to fail at it.

Jessica Frick: Now, Sean, when you fail at a normal thing it’s really not so bad, but when you fail at paid placement, you’re losing money. Why is that okay?

Sean Jackson: Because we spend all sorts of money to fail. How many times have you gone on a new business pitch, and you spent the time and money to do the pitch and you never got the business? We, as entrepreneurs and online people, constantly do things that fail. We take the time to write a post that we think is going to be a hit, and it fails. Failure is, I think, a very important part of success, because it means you’re trying new things. Yes, it can be painful when you’re spending money in the hope that it comes back to you in something. But we do that all the time. We just don’t have that actual moment where it’s, “Put in your credit card and keep your fingers crossed.”

Jessica Frick: True.

Sean Jackson: I would argue that PPC is for everyone. If you’re of the mindset of continuous improvement, knowing that you don’t know what you don’t know, and you can’t know something until you try it. How’s that as the good compromise between?

Jessica Frick: I think that’s a good one. You don’t know it until you try it.

Sean Jackson: That’s right. In this episode of The Digital Entrepreneur, we actually have a very special guest on who is truly a master of PPC for a variety of different industries. When we get back from the break, we are going to interview Sean Dolan of PushFire, who not only is a great, awesome human being, he’s also done work for our company. So we’re definitely talking to someone who we believe and trust, and has helped us. He also has some really unique insight into not only how to start doing advertising, but also some of the things you should be looking for once you get good at the basics. So make sure you stay tuned, and we’ll be right back.

The Digital Entrepreneur is brought to you by the all-new StudioPress Sites, a turnkey solution that provides the ease of an all-in-one website builder with the flexible power of WordPress. It’s perfect for bloggers, podcasters, and affiliate marketers, as well as those selling physical goods, digital downloads, and membership programs. If you’re ready to take your WordPress site to the next level, see for yourself why over 200,000 website owners trust StudioPress. Go to Rainmaker.FM/StudioPress right now. That’s Rainmaker.FM/StudioPress.

Sean Jackson: Welcome back from the break, everyone. Jessica, this may actually be the most confusing interview we’ve ever done, given the fact that we’re about to interview our very special guest who happens to share my name. Please introduce our guest, and make sure when we’re talking to him, we direct it to the right Sean, not to me.

Jessica Frick: Yeah, that’s a good point. Sean, I’m excited to introduce Sean. But Sean Dolan, who is president and COO of PushFire. Sean is a recognized name in the paid placement industry, and he is a keynote speaker and an all-around great guy. He’s actually done work for us here, so I can think of no one better to talk to about paid placement than Dolan.

Sean Jackson: Mr. Dolan, welcome to the show.

Sean Dolan: Thanks for having me, Mr. Jackson.

Sean Jackson: Exactly. Our poor audience is going to be like, “Which Sean are they talking about?”

Sean Dolan: You guys can call me Dolan.

Sean Jackson: I’ll just call you Dolan, exactly.

Sean Dolan: I’ll roll with whatever.

Is PPC Right for Every Type of Business?

Sean Jackson: Well, the good news is you actually spell your name correctly, so I’m happy about that. Sean, we have been debating — Jess and I — about the role of PPC. Is it for every business online, or is it for only certain types of businesses online? Please answer the question for us. Is PPC for everyone?

Sean Dolan: Yeah, when Jessica actually reached out and asked me that in setting up this interview — she asked me that question — I said that PPC is not for everyone, it’s just for winners.

Sean Jackson: Ooh.

Sean Dolan: While it’s funny, I often find people that are asking the question of whether they should do PPC. To me, it’s so self-serving and testable, that the time you spend thinking about it, you could have just tested it and figured out if it works for you. I’m a big fan of “shoot and then recalibrate,” so I always tell people, “At least rule it out. Rule it out and then tell me it doesn’t work.”

If you haven’t tried it, the billions of dollars being spent on it … There’s some bad advertisers out there and big corporations that waste a lot of money, but I don’t think they’re wasting billions of dollars and not getting returns. That’s the argument I usually make to people. We do PPC for our own company, for obvious reasons, and it’s money in, money out. At the end of the day, it works or it doesn’t.

Jessica Frick: That actually brings up one of my questions to you, because as you know, I actually took the negative. I don’t think PPC is for everyone. I know that it works, but I also know that there are a million other ways you can get business. Didn’t you get business off a bathroom wall?

Sean Dolan: Yeah, we did. We had a guy call us — and we ignored him, we didn’t understand the lead. If someone fills out a lead and they don’t know how to fill out lead forms, then we rule them out as potential clients. There was something weird about it and suspicious. Anyway, we actually finally … He was very aggressive and got a hold of us. He’s like, “You guys aren’t going to believe this, but I saw PushFire in a bathroom stall in Sugar Land.”

I still don’t quite know how that came about. I’m not complaining, but I’m also not pursuing that either. Yeah, they come from everywhere. One of my clients teaches real estate investing, and something that he always says … We generate the PPC leads for him, motivated seller leads for his real estate flips, and people always ask him, “What’s the magic marketing? What works? What’s the best?” His answer is, “Everything works. Everything. All of it works. Some better than others, but sitting around not doing it definitely doesn’t work.” That’s where I try to get people, is just try it. Just do it.

Jessica Frick: How do you generate leads for PushFire?

A Super Simple Way to Generate $100,000s of Dollars of Business with Just a Few Hours of Work

Sean Dolan: Over the last three or four years, we’ve been fortunate enough that Ray is good at SEO. We rank one or two for PPC management on Google, depending on the day. It’s us and WordStream, neck and neck. That generated a lot. The problem with that is we would get leads from various sources. We would get a lead for women’s underwear, and then we’d get a lead for trailer hitches. My team is mastering and understanding the landscape of two completely different industries, so the scalability there is weak. We did that for a long time, and we were very successful at it. We have clients from all different industries.

I was spoiled that we were getting all these leads coming in through SEO. I decided that I wanted to take control of that and actually go out and acquire a specific type of lead. I went for the investors. I have a lot of investors we work with that are very successful. I’ve been doing this for over eight years in the real estate space, doing advertising. I get that space. I went online and I Googled “real estate forums.” I recommend, if somebody is trying to generate leads — find that water cooler. Find out where everyone is. If you think there’s not a water cooler for your industry, Google “chewing ice forum,” because there’s a forum for people that like to chew ice.

Jessica Frick: Dude.

Sean Dolan: Yeah. It’s real, look it up.

Jessica Frick: They talk about chewing ice.

Sean Dolan: Yeah, just a group of people that just enjoy chewing ice. That’s their thing. There’s plumbers forums, there’s attorney forums. Whatever is your market, there is a place online those people go. If there’s a website, that means there’s AdSense. That website has to generate money. If there’s AdSense, that’s your in.

I found this online real estate forum. They had three ad sizes across their website. I created three ads while sitting in Starbucks. They were not fantastic ads. I wanted to do all of it myself because I’m putting together a case study on how anyone can do this. I threw the ads together and I put together a landing page. It was very in your face. I understand the real estate investors enough to know how they speak and how to get their attention. I threw it up. I spent about $2000.

Actually, in four days, I got 20 leads at about $50 a lead. Right out of the gate, I was generating leads. I closed 10 of those lands, and I will probably close another five. This is just two or three weeks ago that we ran this. I had to pause it because I couldn’t take all the calls. Even at the 10 leads that we closed, the minimum revenue for that is $120,000 a year, assuming those 10 stay with us, which they tend to do. A third of those tend to spend more than the minimum. As their business grows, they’re spending $3000 to $5000 a month. Conservatively, from a few hours at Starbucks, I generated $200,000 a year in revenue.

If you do the math on that, 10 minutes of Googling the forum niche and finding out where the water cooler is, four hours at Starbucks creating the landing page, 20 minutes setting up ads in AdWords, 20 hours doing calls and sending contracts — that’s about 24 hours and 30 minutes to generate $200,000, or $8,163 per hour in revenue generated. This is literally overnight. There’s certain variables, like I had to be able to sell them. But when it comes to generating the leads …

Why Even a Failed PPC Test Is Better than No Testing

Sean Dolan: People dismiss display because the intent’s not there. “I have to figure out the intent based on the website they’re on.” With search, it’s very easy. People that are looking for PPC links for real estate, they’ll Google that. Through display, I have to identify where those people are. But it’s so easy to do. To me, if you have $1000 that you wanted to test — even if PPC fails, you have purchased data.

If you spend that on radio or TV, the data you get back is very weak. If you spend it on PPC, the data you get back is very specific. You know exactly what doesn’t work, and you can move forward from that. Obviously I’m biased. I’m in the world. I’m in it every day. But when I’m working with companies and they have other marketing channels … Man, I constantly feel like we outperform all the other channels.

Sean Jackson: Isn’t that part of the scary part? If I’m just doing this, if I’m just starting out, I don’t know if it’s going to work. And even if I think it may work, isn’t it too hard to put together? You gave a very specific example, but again, isn’t it just … I think there’s a lot of fear from the potential complexity of it. “I’m not a designer, I’m not a copywriter, etc.”

Sean Dolan: Yeah, and I don’t want to downplay my Photoshop skills that much. If we’re talking about just an average person, I definitely understand Photoshop enough to create an ad. It’s not a spectacular ad, but it’s enough to do the job. You can get people on Fiverr for $50, $100 to create you that great ad or maybe a set of ads. In fact, if we do the math I just did and instead I outsourced all of that work that I did, the 24 hours — it would have worked out to, let’s say, $1000 for the landing page, conservatively. You can get them a lot cheaper than that. But $1000 for the landing page design and copywriting. $500, let’s say, for the ad creation.

If I hired a sales guy to do all those calls for me, pay him $500 per lead he closed … If we take all that out of the $200,000, I’m left with $193,000 for 30 minutes of work. Do you know what I mean? Which is $96,000 an hour. Yeah, people get caught up in trying to do everything. This is huge in the real estate investing space. I keep bringing it up because a lot of my clients are in that space. But all these other guys, they’ll be on these forums and they’ll be like, “Hey guys, I’m trying to learn SEO.” I’m just like “ugh.” “I’m trying to learn PPC. I’m trying to learn all these things.” Then I ask them, “How is your flooring? Do you do flooring really well? How’s your roofing? Are you a good roofer?”

Are you going to buy a house and re-habit yourself, and hammer and nails? No. You hire people that know how to do that. I think people, they get caught up in wanting to do everything themselves. But when you outsource it, the math just makes so much more sense. Your time is valuable. Me and Ray always go over this. It’s been a mantra. If we find ourselves doing something that costs less than we make per hour to have somebody else do, we need to have them do it. That’s really helped us directly change our business and improve the revenue that we generate. That would be my response. Unless you’re passionate about graphic design, or unless you’re passionate about landing page design, man, just hire somebody. Just pay the money, have someone who is a pro do it.

What will happen is, if you do it wrong, you’re getting a false positive. You’ll disprove PPC where it might have worked had you hired someone who is competent and can create a good ad. Nobody is that far away from doing what I did in putting together the landing page and ad themselves, but at the same time, just hire someone who is good and learn from them. Prove the concept, prove the math. If you generate revenue from it, then you can go into the details and maybe play around with ads. That’s my recommendation, is outsource.

Jessica Frick: Sean, you’re pretty strong about outsourcing. What would you say the minimum amount of money is for someone to need to properly test whether paid placement is going to work for them? And should they just go straight for Google text or display? Should they experiment with social right out the door, too? Or do you suggest they use a budget and tier in? What do you think is best?

How to Find the Right Budget for Testing in Your Niche

Sean Dolan: Okay, I had a conversation with somebody yesterday whose wife is starting an event planning company. Or it’s been running, and she wants to help market it. The advice I gave to him for his wife was Facebook lead ads for their very specific area. If you want to test out PPC with the very minimum cost and lowest barrier of entry, you create a Facebook business page and you do Facebook lead ads. For her, it was event planning. It’s this bride who is frazzled. It’s like, “Don’t let this be you on your wedding day,” and you target people who are engaged within five miles or 10 miles of her home. She doesn’t have an office.

That’s my first step. I tell people that it’s either that or go to Google search and advertise on the exact product that you sell. If you sell blue shoes, you go to Google and you advertise on the term, “I want to buy blue shoes today.” I don’t care how expensive that term is, that’s not really the point. Bring people in that have the highest intent to convert for your product. If you can’t convert those people, you have a business problem. You have a lower funnel problem. A lot of people confuse that and they think that PPC didn’t work, when really it was the sales didn’t work. The follow-up didn’t work. In real estate, how many realtors do not answer their phone when my wife is calling them to check out a property?

That would be my biggest advice. If you’re going to test PPC, you want to make sure that you rule out your business as maybe being a problem. A good trick to do that is to advertise on the most obvious term and test it out. If you’re able to convert those terms — again, at whatever price — then you know you at least have your sales funnel together. It would be different if we’re talking about someone who has an established sales funnel, but I think here we’re talking about someone who is maybe getting started. If that’s the case, that’s how I would test it.

Sean Jackson: That’s a really good point, talking about the initial people that are just getting into this, going after the intent. I think it’s the question of budget, to follow up with Jessica. Part of it is, maybe you shouldn’t be playing in Google to start with. Maybe something like Bing, or a second or third tier place where you can make mistakes and it not cost you a fortune. You go after intent on a cheaper scale to test it out. Would you say that’s the case? If so, what would do it, $500? Do I need $1000? Do I need $10,000?

Sean Dolan: Yeah, it’s tough. When people come to me, if they’re not spending $5000 a month, for my business to work, it doesn’t make a lot of sense. I obviously give lots of people advice on the phone even if we’re not a good fit. For me, putting a price on it’s hard. If you’re an attorney who is wondering about PPCing for “truck accident attorney,” that’s hundreds of dollars per click. If you’re looking for “local hair salon,” that’s going to be a ridiculously cheap click. It does depend on the industry that you’re in. You can guess based on the lifetime value of the customer what that bid might be in general. There’s also tools you can look at.

It’s really hard for me to answer that question without knowing what their business is, but I will give the answer of, seek somebody out. There’s a lot of actual Facebook groups and there’s a lot of LinkedIn groups that discuss PPC, Facebook. There’s so many people on there that are very giving of their knowledge, and you can crowdsource that. I would suggest somebody like that. Either talk to somebody who is a professional, or go to an organization — even a meetup. DFWSEM up in Dallas. We’ve got SearchHOU in Houston.

Go to a meetup and ask somebody. Say, “Hey, this is my industry. What sort of amount should I spend?” You don’t want to spend too little and have it fail because you didn’t let the math run. You have to have enough sample data to really know statistically how that’s going to play out. A lot of people stop short. If they would have spent 10 more dollars, they would have gotten the lead that justifies it.

Sean Jackson: Right.

Sean Dolan: I would recommend going and seeking that advice out from someone in person.

Sean Jackson: Let’s move the conversation up. We’ve talked a lot about the beginning things that you have to do. I think you’ve covered through the basics. Let’s talk about the pros. You are obviously a pro. There are trends that are affecting the industry. Where is it going? I want to specifically key in on a couple of things. I want to talk about mobile and I want to talk about video. That’s how I’d like to end our interview. I want to go to the more advanced topics now. We’ve covered the basics, let’s talk about mobile and let’s talk about video. What do you see people are not doing that are currently advertising? What should they be doing better? And what they should be on the lookout for.

Future Trends in PPC and How You Can Stay Ahead

Sean Dolan: It’s an interesting question, because when I hear, “What’s on the horizon?” I immediately think, “98% of the people aren’t even doing what’s available today.” Do you know what I mean?

Sean Jackson: Right.

Sean Dolan: So many people aren’t doing what’s available now. But I think for horizon, if somebody were more high level, I think Facebook and Instagram are definitely — there’s opportunities there. Be first to try out new tools. New social network, whatever it is. Reddit recently released advertising. For anyone using Reddit, they see them. Obviously the targeting is not great right now. I think because the advertisers are not utilizing it very well. I’ve peeked in. I’m looking for the right client to try on Reddit. That’s what I’d recommend, is trying to stay ahead of the game and get into these new opportunities before all the competitors.

By the time Walmart and Chevron have gotten buy-in from upper management to venture into Reddit, it’s a little late. The competition is going to be there and the cost-per-click is going to go up. As far as mobile, man, people talk about advertising with PPC. They’re like, “I don’t have a website.” Of course, I’m like, “You’re hundreds of dollars away from having a website. Not a great one, but something.” That aside, there’s “click to call” options in Google, where you can have an ad that only shows up on mobile devices. When the user clicks it, it says, “Would you like to call this person?” You don’t even need a website.

Sean Jackson: Right.

Sean Dolan: You don’t need a website for PPC. I think little things like that, that people aren’t aware of and they miss out on. I think there’s huge gaps. I drive around town and I look at businesses, and I want to save all of them. They’re all missing out on such basic opportunities that would cost them very little to make a huge impact. That’s where I would go as far as mobile. Then, with video — video is killing it, particularly on Facebook. Hands down, every piece of content we put up, video drives more engagement than anything else.

There’s some arguments based on the authenticity of all that and what they actually count as a view, but I know from personal experience video definitely grabs me. I think if you’re an event planner, a hairstylist, or you sell honey from the bees in your backyard, if you go on Facebook and you advertise in a 5-mile radius and you put a video of yourself … Take the video on your iPhone and you post it. You explain your story. I think anybody could do really well.

Sean Jackson: Yeah, that’s a good point. Once you get into it, I think over time — just to sum up our conversation together — it’s not hard to get started in this. It doesn’t have to cost a fortune. But you should have at least a general idea, and ask others for their opinions and advice. Get into it. See what’s working for you when somebody is ready to buy right now. See what’s not working, and it could be that your business is broken. Then, of course, always be willing to go out there. Find new places that are on the forefront. Continue and expand.

But don’t forget the block and tackling. At the end of the day, if you’re not blocking and tackling, then you’re just missing opportunities that are so easy to grab. Then, of course, as the future unfolds with more mobile, video, etc., be willing to take a chance on them. Be willing to take a look. But realize that as you explore in this journey, you’re constantly going to be refining. Don’t forget to do the basics well to start with. Would you say, in summary, that’s pretty much what you said for the past 20 minutes?

Sean Dolan: Nailed it. That’s a wrap.

Sean Jackson: There you go. Well, hey, Sean, not only do you spell your name correctly, and not only do you have great insight, but you are a true gentleman and scholar. Jessica and I really appreciate you being on the show.

Sean Dolan: Anytime. Thank you so much.

Sean Jackson: Thank you, brother.

Jessica Frick: Thanks, Sean.

Sean Dolan: Y’all have a good one, bye bye.

Sean Jackson: Hey, everyone. This is Sean Jackson, the host of The Digital Entrepreneur. I want to ask you a simple question. What is your business framework for selling digital goods online? Now, if the question perplexes you, don’t worry. You’re not alone. Most people don’t realize that the most successful digital entrepreneurs have a framework or a general process for creating and selling their digital goods in the online space. One of the best free resources is Digital Commerce Academy. Digital Commerce Academy combines online learning with case studies and webinars created by people who make a living selling digital goods online.

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As a special bonus, we will also subscribe you to our newsletter when you text or email us so that you can stay informed with the latest insights from the show. Don’t worry, we respect your privacy. We will not share your email or phone number, and you can easily unsubscribe at any time. If you want to start building or improving your framework for selling digital goods online, then please send a text to 313131 with the keyword “digits,” or send us an email at Digits@Rainmaker.FM. You won’t be disappointed.

Welcome back, everyone. It’s that time for us to give our recommendations for the week. Jessica, what do you have to recommend for our audience?

Jessica Frick: I can’t believe I’ve never recommended them on this show before, but Raven Tools. I love the Raven Tools team. I love the product. I have been a devoted user for years. When it comes to marketing reports and getting all the data you need in one easy place, Raven is where it’s at. Now that they have their site auditor tool in full force, it is absolutely unmatched and worth every penny.

Sean Jackson: Yeah, what’s the matter with you? Why haven’t you recommended them before? We love that tool, and we love those people. Gosh.

Jessica Frick: I have no idea. You know, I wear the t-shirt all the time. I don’t wear other people’s t-shirts very often, but I wear Raven all the time because I love talking about them. I don’t know.

Sean Jackson: Yeah, I agree with you. Raven Tools, everyone. Definitely check out that tool for the week. For me, I’m going to say to continue in our PPC thought, I have a blog site to recommend, which is the WordStream blog. WordStream.com/blog. Absolutely go and read that if you want to go and get more information about PPC, wouldn’t you say, Jess? That’s a good resource. At least to start out with. It’s going to cover both the basics and they, of course, have a tool that will help you for keywords, etc.

Jessica Frick: They do. It’s funny that Sean just literally said that WordStream.com competes with PushFire.com for SEO traffic.

Sean Jackson: Right. Hey, we’re equal opportunity here. Heck. We’re giving you both sides of the equation. We don’t care, as long as you succeed. That’s all that matters to us. Go take a look at Raven Tools, by all means. Great guys over there, great tool. In addition to our friend Sean Dolan from PushFire, by all means take a look at WordStream.com. Research and see what they have to say on their blog site if you are truly interested in learning more about PPC. All right, Jess, it is time for our question of the week, what we want people to ponder. You ready?

Jessica Frick: I’m ready. I’m ready.

Sean Jackson: What is the most important thing when it comes to growing your business, the quantity and quality of leads, or the process?

Jessica Frick: Ooh. That’s a really good question. Obviously, being the ops chick, I have to say process.

Sean Jackson: Of course I’m going to take the other side, which is the quantity of leads. Give me more to sell.

Jessica Frick: We should talk about this.

Sean Jackson: We should talk about this, and we’re going to do that on the next episode of The Digital Entrepreneur. Have a great week, everyone, we’ll catch you next time.

Jessica Frick: Thanks for listening.